DGNLIB - Custom Line Styles - [Archived] MicroStation V8i Forum - MicroStation - Bentley Communities

DGNLIB - Custom Line Styles

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[Archived] MicroStation V8i Forum

DGNLIB - Custom Line Styles

  • When a custom line style is imported into a DGNLIB file, can it be edited?  If yes, HOW?

     

    Thanks

    Chuck

  • No.
  • Ok...

    So what is the benefit of importing custom linestyles into a DGNLIB?

    Instead of having one resource file to manage, you have two....

  • I think it's a work in progress.  The general assumption is that Bentley will add the ability to edit directly from the dgnlib at a later date.
  • Here's a thread on the topic with a CR you can file against:

    http://communities.bentley.com/products/microstation/microstation_v8i/f/19565/t/34561.aspx
  • The key benefit is that when a DGN stores the definition of a custom linestyle the DGN file is no longer dependant on the RSC file.  This makes sharing and using DGN files easier as they have less outside requirements.

    The ability to edit a DGN based line style is something we are evaluating the users desire for. 

     hth,
    ~john.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • Hello

    "The ability to edit a DGN based line style is something we are evaluating the users desire for"

    IMHO this would seem to be a fairly widespread request (re earlier threads about batten linestyles for example)

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD technician

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD/Architectural Technician & Low Carbon Consultant

    Microstation SS2, BA SS1 (+update), Windows 7 Pro, 64 bit, quad core 3Ghz, 8Gb RAM, ATI 6870 1Gb, ect,

  • danny-cooley:
    IMHO this would seem to be a fairly widespread request (re earlier threads about batten linestyles for example)

    This probably is a widespread request on the web site, but in noramlly takes formal CRs for Bentley to "evaluate the users desire" for new features. EVERYONE who wants this function NEEDS to file a SR to be added to the CR.

    Thanks - Roy

  • Danny, Chuck

    Here is some info on the CR.

    http://communities.bentley.com/Products/MicroStation/f/273/t/34802.aspx

    Unfortunately under the current system only the squeaky CR wheel gets the oil.

     

  • I also lodged a ST a couple of years ago on this topic, including the dialog box to function similarly to that of Multi-Lines.

    CADMinistrator ®

  • DavidG:

    Unfortunately under the current system only the squeaky CR wheel gets the oil.

    This is not a true statement.

    BSW looks at all high ranking CR's and tries to clear as many of them as possible for each release.  We also look at alot of low hanging fruit CR's and implement them as well.  This inparticular CR is not one that actually ranks very high or very low.  We also then need to consider time to implement a particular CR and the cost of it to other projects.  Given all the factors level, of request, time, value, etc we then decide which CR's get implemented.  This is just CR review, we then have to consider other projects that are happening, etc, etc.  I was personal with over 300 users last week and I did not hear one say give me the ability to edit DGN based custom linestyles.  Now I heard them tell me alot of things like ... :)

    I hope this helps you better understand our process.

    regards,
    ~john.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • John

    OK, I stand corrected.  It was my understanding if you want an issue to be address you need to file an ST. The more ST's that get filed against an issue the great the likelhood of it getting resolved.  Kicking it around in the MicroStation forum won't raise it as much on Bentleys priority list as filing an ST.  That is the point I was trying to make.

    Just curious how many of those 300 users ever had to create or edit a line style.

    Thanks

    DavidG

  • DavidG:

    Just curious how many of those 300 users ever had to create or edit a line style.

    Great point let's say 10% (I think this is high) have had to do it.  Let's say that 70% have to do X (there are several X's the majority agreed they have to do).  So do we invest 2 months enhancing the X's or rewritting the custom line style tools?

    ~john.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • DavidG:

    Danny, Chuck

    Here is some info on the CR.

    http://communities.bentley.com/Products/MicroStation/f/273/t/34802.aspx

    Unfortunately under the current system only the squeaky CR wheel gets the oil.

    I guess at this rate it will take forever:

    5 - This is a good idea. I have logged an ST.
    6 - This is a good idea but I'm not logging an ST.
    1 - I'd rather see effort go to other areas.

    We need more EXPOSURE and more SUPPORT from EVERYONE for this feature / "promise" to be implemented.

    Thanks - Roy
  • Hello Roy

    Thanks! (I do vaguely remember this thread)

    However, I can't seem to find where/how you would vote/add your support for this (in the survey)

     I've logged a CR anyway, asking for the linestyles to be created/set in a dgnlib. I then asked how/if it is possible to see existing CRs so that one can add support for them. I haven't received an answer yet. Though it was only a day or so ago.

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD technician

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD/Architectural Technician & Low Carbon Consultant

    Microstation SS2, BA SS1 (+update), Windows 7 Pro, 64 bit, quad core 3Ghz, 8Gb RAM, ATI 6870 1Gb, ect,

  • John Frampton:

    Great point let's say 10% (I think this is high) have had to do it.  Let's say that 70% have to do X (there are several X's the majority agreed they have to do).  So do we invest 2 months enhancing the X's or rewritting the custom line style tools?

    I figured this was Bentley's logic.  After all, this issue really only affects CAD managers.  But, it probably affects over 80% (gotta imagine just about everyone uses custom linestyles) of your customers.  And, I have yet to talk to someone who actually walked away from that custom linestyle editor without a bad taste in their mouth.

  • eeryanc:
    ...  And, I have yet to talk to someone who actually walked away from that custom linestyle editor without a bad taste in their mouth.

     

    I absolute hate the current linstyle editor. If it could be done in a .dgnlib file with something simlar to the multi-line dialog I would be very happy.

    Terry Judy Jr.

    MS SS2 08.11.09.357

    GeoPAK SS2 08-11.07.536

    Cook Coggin Engineers, Inc. - Tupelo, MS

  • Danny, If you don't see the check boxes to vote you may have already voted. I think thats how it works. Maybe someone who hasn't voted could check to see if the radio buttons are still there.
  • David:
    Maybe someone who hasn't voted could check to see if the radio buttons are still there.

    I just visited that vote thread, saw the radio buttons, and successfully voted. At the time of writing, 13 people had voted.

    Regards, Jon Summers
    LA Solutions

    Regards, Jon Summers
    LA Solutions

  • Thanks Jon
  • Hello David

    I guess then I must have already voted (seeing as as couldn't see the buttons .... sounds reasonable)

    Hello John

    "Great point let's say 10% (I think this is high) have had to do it. Let's say that 70% have to do X (there are several X's the majority agreed they have to do). So do we invest 2 months enhancing the X's or rewritting the custom line style tools?"

    I sympathise with this predicament and realise Bentley have to balance out lots of requests .....

    "let's say 10% (I think this is high) have had to do it"

    This is an "issue" that I feel is a "stumbling block" with regards to development. Numerous times I've had some kind of "but we want the user to be able to customise" from various Bentley people. A positive and well intentioned point of view no doubt. However, generally speaking, the vast majority of users, never customise anything. or even consider or attempt to do so. They just use what the company or CAD Dept give them. Occasionally some companies allow the users to create their own Levels, some allow them to edit things in the project level dgnlibs (though a lot of companies haven't got around to implementing things like that yet, they just use the centralised "practice wide" dgnlibs). Sometimes people "fiddle a bit " with text and dim styles. But they don't usually create a new style. They just tamper/play around with the settings until they get it to "look about right", effectively "breaking" or "diverting from" the established style for the purposes of that file/drawing in front of them right now (because I need to get this drawing done today to send it out). On the whole, it's only CAD Managers or a handful of "pro users" (actually a very small percentage of the workforce ...... usually the sort of people participating in these forums) ... that would consider attempting to customise a linestyle (or anything else for that matter). Everyone else just uses "what's there in front of them right now" .... if it isn't very convenient or doesn't work too well, ...... then "Oh, that doesn't work too well, I'll just fudge it best I can " tends to be the response. There's a whole raft of "minor niggles" that people (the users) never bother to report as a problem ...... "that's just how it is I guess" being the predominant mindset. Most users have "bigger issues" to deal with when in the middle of a frantic/hectic architectual workflow, which take precedence over complaining to/reporting to the CAD Manager about some linestyle issue ..... again, they just "fudge it, make do best they can, then get on with the next thing. The CAD Managers may also have a hundred and one other things to do. If this was easier to deal with, it might be something they can "get out of the way" fairly quickly/easily, rather than putting off .... because it's a bit fiddly (i.e off putting)

    Maybe only a handful of people have raised this custom linestyles issue (in your experience), ..... but on the other hand I think it's fair to say that approx 100% of users will be using linestyles at some point . I've worked at quite a few companies now (small, medium and large, .....being freelance) and I can assure you that pretty much everyone at some point has some "issues" with some linestyle(s) not being appropriate to their requirements or (batten/insulation being the most common culprit). Most of them don't even know that one could indeed potentially create another linestyle should one wish to (they certainly wouldn't know where to find a .rsc file)

    I find it very odd (and a major oversight) that we have this state of the art, cutting edge, all powerful CAD system that allows one to do all sorts of "advanced" things (GC, "smart" objects, surfaces/solids, photo realistic renderings, ...) yet out of the box, there is not a drop down menu for "insulation" at 50 mm, 75, 100 (or in inches if that's what's required). One then has to "fiddle around" with "some specialist file or other" (.rsc file? ..... where do I find that then?) in order to remedy this.

    Plus, ..... most other standards/project wide settings are now done in a dgnlib. It would seem the way things are going. It would then seem preferable to use this same approach for linestyles.

    You set up the "company wide" standards in company dgnlibs, then you have additional "project level" dgnlibs (possibly empty to begin with), which can then be used if further tweaking is needed for the purposes of that project, .....

    Hope that makes sense ..... (I sympathise with your predicament and thank you for the comments made) ...

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD technician

     

     

     

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD/Architectural Technician & Low Carbon Consultant

    Microstation SS2, BA SS1 (+update), Windows 7 Pro, 64 bit, quad core 3Ghz, 8Gb RAM, ATI 6870 1Gb, ect,

  • John Frampton:
    [Great point let's say 10% (I think this is high) have had to do it.  Let's say that 70% have to do X (there are several X's the majority agreed they have to do).  So do we invest 2 months enhancing the X's or rewritting the custom line style tools?

    John,

    Does the ST tracking system have the ability to determine how many "Site" CRs have been requested? Truely your customers are companies and not users, if in those 10% the majority are large corporations then it would follow that your 10% to 70% copmarison can be greatly skewed. CRs should be weighted by the number of licenses held by the company as it is generally the CADD Manager making the request to support possibly 100s-1000s of users. Of course this is not my case as I only speak for 6 ;>).

    Thanks - Roy

  • I sympathise with this predicament and realise Bentley have to balance out lots of requests ...

    No need to sympathise with us or me, it is our job to try to produce the most usful product to you with the resource and time we have allocated.

    Does the ST tracking system have the ability to determine how many "Site" CRs have been requested? Truely your customers are companies and not users, if in those 10% the majority are large corporations then it would follow that your 10% to 70% copmarison can be greatly skewed. CRs should be weighted by the number of licenses held by the company as it is generally the CADD Manager making the request to support possibly 100s-1000s of users. Of course this is not my case as I only speak for 6 ;>).

    They are, it does, and this is all taken into consideration when CR's are evaluated.

    Thank you all.

    Regards,
    ~john.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • November 2009 this thread was started.  In MicroStation v8i SS2's Help file, the text still does not mention that linestyles, once added to the active dgn or a dgnlib, cannot be edited using the line style editor.  

    If you're not going to add the ability to edit line styles stored in DGNs, at least make it clear in the product documentation what the recommended workflow is for creating and maintaining a library of custom line styles.  This is a basic part of every CAD manager's job, and frankly the documentation for it in MicroStation right now is terrible.

    The process apparently hasn't changed at all - use RSC files if you want to actually modify the linestyles at any point.  But now most of the pages in the help file that deal with this take pains to mention that linestyles can now be stored in either RSC resource files or in DGNs.  I could not find one mention in the help file of the severe limitations imposed when the linestyles are stored in DGNs.  As this thread (and others) show, this leads to great confusion.

    I apologize for using a strong word to describe my feelings about this aspect of MicroStation, but sugar coating it wouldn't do it justice. The documentation needs to be improved.

    MicroStation V8i SS3 (8.11.09.397) & GEOPAK V8i SS3 (08.11.09.493)

  • <<from help>>

    Line Style Editor dialog

    Used to define and modify line styles. Opens when Line Style > Edit is chosen from the Element menu.

    Line style definitions can be stored in DGN files or in line style libraries. The dialog lets you open and define or modify line styles in only one line style library at a time. If a line style library is open, its file specification displays in the title bar.

    <<end help>>

    The highlighted portion above states line style library.    We will try to add it to other areas on the help document.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • Would be better to fix the problem (i.e. the LS editing process) rather than spend time fixing the help file to explain the problem.

    Just my 2¢

  • The dialog lets you open and define or modify line styles in only one line style library at a time.

    This is clear if you realize that "line style library" means RSC file.  However, one might reasonably think that "line style library" means either an RSC file or a dgnlib, due to the repeated instances where the text points out that line styles can be stored in either type of container.  

    I think it might be clearer if there was a sentence explaining that line styles stored in DGNs or dgnlibs are not able to be modified.  That fact is left for the reader to infer as the text currently stands - why not make it explicit?

    I do agree with the poster above/below me - the most preferable solution would be to make a line style editor that can modify line styles stored in DGNs.  I'm a big fan of dgnlibs - they've really made managing standards a lot easier in a lot of cases.

    MicroStation V8i SS3 (8.11.09.397) & GEOPAK V8i SS3 (08.11.09.493)

  • I agree, as I have moved everything else away from RSC files to dgnlib's this is the only thing missing. And it's soo much easier to control with dgnlib's. Keeping the linestyles in RSC is the last obstacle on the way.

    Hear the people shout: Give us editible linestyles in dgnlib's now!

    MicroStation 08.11.09.459
    ProjectWise 08.11.07.133

  • Hi Adam,

    The line prior to that states "DGN files or in line style libraries".  Sorry if this doesn't make it clear.  I will look to have that fixed.

    All,

    This is on the backlog.  Just so you all are not surprised, this is not an enhancement scheduled for the next release.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • Count me in for editable linestyles in a dgnlib!

  • John Frampton
    This is on the backlog.  Just so you all are not surprised, this is not an enhancement scheduled for the next release.

    No surprise, been patiently (although VERBOSELY) waiting since V8 XM!

  • The surprise would be if it got done.  MY guess is  DDD, TAGs, Templates, Cameras ... are on the same list. :-)

    Does anybody know if we can still do User Surveys on the "new and improved" BE

  • Ok,  Again to reopen this issue with DGNLIB and custom line styles....  So we all are in agreement that we all want to be able to edit the LS in the DGNLIB.

    One thing that I also noticed that may be a bit of a BUZZ-KILL is that once a user places a line style from a DGNLIB, the said LS becomes embedded in the DGN...So if a client decides to change the LS in the DGNLIB and reissues the DGNLIB, we have to manually update it everywhere it was placed?  Please correct me if I am wrong, but in the several tests that I performed,this has been the result.  The beauty of a LS in the RSC file is that if I need to update it, I can do so and the update is reflected on the element with the said LS.  

  • Hi Chuck,

    Yes your testing is correct, RSC line styles are references, DGNlib besed styles are embedded in the DGN upon use.  This is consistent with all DGNlib content.

    HTH,

    ~john.

    best,
    ~john.
    bentley 

      

    Yes I am that literal

  • Thanks for the reply John,

    No offense, this is just another reason why NOT to have LS's in a DGNLIB file.  I also filed a change request.

    Chuck

  • Chuck and others

    'Yes your testing is correct, RSC line styles are references, DGNlib besed styles are embedded in the DGN upon use.  This is consistent with all DGNlib content.'

    The problem here then is that LS edited in the would-be dgnlib wouldn't cascade those changes in to the various dgns where that linestyle has been used. Though one would have though it would be possible to synch the LS back to the dgnlib. In the same way that you can 'Update Levels' in the Levels Manager for example. Surely this could be automated somehow so that when a dgn is opened it checks to see if there are any LS in use that don't match the dgnlib.

    The issue is mainly that people seem to find the whole creating/editing custom linestyles to be quite unsatisfactory (myself included certainly). We really could do with de-cluttering the whole company/project standards approach/system. Dgnlibs have been a big step in the right direction as far as this is concerned. We need to cut down on all kinds of different 'files' for different settings. It would seem much better if it's quite clear there are dgnlibs for the company wide standards. The each project may have it's own 'Project Level' dgnlibs that allow you to add-to/tweak those standards a bit further for the requirements of that project.

    Having a clearly named dgnlib (does what it says on the tin) for each type of setting/standard way of doing things is surely the way forward.

    You should just have to 'point' the dgnlib configs to the 'standards' folder and then the 'project' folder and it's all linked up/set in place. Why have 'extra stuff' just for LS. We need consistency ..... If as you say, having the LS in the dgnlib would create some issues with updating the LS, then that would need to be addressed. But that shouldn't detract from the overall claim/request that it would be preferable to have the LS in with the dgnlibs (like everything else now is).

    Regards

    Danny Cooley

    Freelance CAD/Architectural Technician & Low Carbon Consultant

    Microstation SS2, BA SS1 (+update), Windows 7 Pro, 64 bit, quad core 3Ghz, 8Gb RAM, ATI 6870 1Gb, ect,