Challenge to you all working with Descartes/Point cloud/stm with draped raster models, that have/had trouble to create an presentation to use with Adobe reader as an 3d pdf output

Hi Tom,

I like this original approach of saying that something in our software is not working as expected :)

Could you explain a bit more what is your trouble about creating a presentation to use with Adobe reader as an 3d pdf output?

If I remember well creating a 3D PDF with a huge STM having draped raster resulted in poor viewing performance of the 3D PDF in Acrobat Reader. Unfortunately the draped raster resolution is not directly configurable, for viewing or for printing.

Though maybe for printing some setting related to material/texture might have an influence on the raster resolution?

HTH,

Mathieu

Hi Mathieu

First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with functionality in Descartes (...but...some new function wouldn´t hurt to get :) ).

This issue is more about the problem to distribute the product you have created within Descartes (see my dataset) to non cad client. The client wan´t to use the result you created as meeting material for projects and also use it as delivery material for discussion basis with Consultants. The media that this distribution is done  is almost always Adobe pdf.

To create 3D models as in data set is done in minutes but to get out a 3D pdf so the client can use it, is taking hours or is even not possible at all.

Like in the dataset example, the output 3D pdf is over 100mb, done with the same settings in reduce_size_3D.pdfcfg file used to print maps and ortophotos.

This result file at 100mb can´t even be opened on the clients laptop therefor I need some suggestions from others that has done this or know how to reduze size with right settings done to the pltcfg driver or to Microstation. These settings is for generating 3D stm models with draped ortophotos as 3D pdf:s , NOT for Printing.

The value of generating an 3D model:

Often as in the case with the dataset is when the developers 2D paper plan with desired heights in their interest area doesn´t match the reality of the real ground. Mostly these kind of discussions of right and wrong done from both sides "municipalitys cityplanners and developers with their consultans"  is only done in 2D paper copys of the site.

These discussions can take hours. but with the 3D model done by Descartes/Point cload/stm (and Terrasolid Products) the arguments about the site issues is done in seconds (hard to argue with reality :) ).

Hope this explain the "challenge" better :)

//Tom

Hi Tom,

While I'm not aware of all discussions regarding the publishing of STM and point cloud I think that technically the big challenge with STM and point cloud data is that they can be very huge in size.

How do you publish very huge dataset? One solution is to decrease the resolution, but often having a publishable delivery with a manageable size and an acceptable resolution is not possible.

Probably the best solution for publishing very huge dataset is to stream them. Point cloud can be streamed using ProjectWise and if you select the Keep Original option for point cloud when creating your i-model the ProjectWise URL of the point cloud should be kept in the i-model. That being said ensuring that the ProjectWise URL be resolved is another issue which would need to be asserted with that streaming strategy.

As for using another media I doubt that the result that can be achieved with another media be better than one is currently available using an i-model and the free software available for handling them (see www.bentley.com/.../free+software).

Finally draped raster applied on the STM is not yet supported for an i-model because it wasn't considered a top priority feature for the first release of STM.

Thanks,

Mathieu

Hi Mathieu

I realize that my question wasn´t that good formulated. The Point from my side was not about the Point cload information delivery, as you wrote there is already very good ways to stream Point cload data through projectwise. I didn´t either mean to deliver huge decartes datasets with draped ortos/images in stm:s.

My point is that in smaller Projects "cityplans, 3d city models, analyze models (shadow,solar etc.) is a need to be able to publish outside microstation enviroment as you do when printing to paper or generate an 2d/3d pdf.

In my mind:

The limitations of the area or the information is up to the producer as even the quality settings of the Product. But as in this case when a excellent new feature as stm is in Descartes,new element types added to Microstation enviroment should also be suported as any old microstation element type. This lack of interoperability is not god at all, I have bad experiences from this types of non interoperability elements in Bentley Map that doesn´t fully working with plain Microstation(read only).

So what I mean with all this.  Is there a new element type added it should also be functionality and with options to handle the new type through different settings. The stm is great feature but I need to get it to work fully in microstation.

Back to basic issue:

Have you got any news of possible settings to pltcfg file that could reduze the size of stm raster.

BTW!! Have you tested to generate/print an 3d pdf from a part of your huge stm Project, try to limitate the area with all known microstation trix (fence, clip  etc.), when I have done this there is a lot of suprices that pops up inside the 3d pdf. The view what you see in pdf is only a part of the information that has been generated, if you check the outside information of the visible "image" you see that there is hidden information.

Regards

 

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

It is worth noting that the STM element is a Descartes element, not a MicroStation element. Also the STM element is not what should be called a run-of-the-mill, simple element, but a quite complex one. This means that the STM element will certainly need some time to mature.

If you feel that there are interoperability issues related to the STM feel free to fill service tickets on the subject. We have certainly a lot of things we want to do to improve the STM, but it is you, the users, who can help us choose the best things to be added first.

Ok as for the publishing issue I haven't received any news on how to reduce the size of the STM raster.

When I try to generate a 3D PDF with a fence to limit the area the fence doesn't seem to be applied at all, even a simple dgn line element outside the fence is copied to the 3D PDF. Maybe another general bug at the print level that is worth a new thread?

Thanks,

Mathieu

Thanks Matheiu

The support for Descartes isn´t the best in Europé (through sweden to dublin) so I have almoust given up to report anything that way, but if I can get contact with the right person (in Amsterdam), of course I fill in Cr:s and Tr:s.

created an new thread about the limited area issue for 3d pdf but it seems that the Printing forum @ BE communities is not that Active :(

But anyway, thanks for all ideas and testings

Regards

Tom

"Finally draped raster applied on the STM is not yet supported for an i-model because it wasn't considered a top priority feature for the first release of STM."

Hi Mathieu,

Are you aware of any progress in the matter of draping rasters on STM in i-models? We are running MX SS3 .722 and unfortunately, we are unable to publish i-model containing STM with draped rasters.

Thanks,

"Finally draped raster applied on the STM is not yet supported for an i-model because it wasn't considered a top priority feature for the first release of STM."

Hi Mathieu,

Are you aware of any progress in the matter of draping rasters on STM in i-models? We are running MX SS3 .722 and unfortunately, we are unable to publish i-model containing STM with draped rasters.

Thanks,

Hi K,

I am not aware of any progress in the matter of draping rasters on STM in i-models.

That being said one work around which might be useful for you is to drape rasters on the STM using DCDrape instead of the STM's high resolution raster draping functionality and then export to i-model.

Sure the resolution of the raster draped in the resulting i-model will be most likely coarser than the original STM with full resolution raster draped on it, but since when converting to i-model the resolution of the STM is also likely decreased this solution might be acceptable for you.

Thanks,

Mathieu