Cells Disappear Changing Annotation Scale

We have a serious issue that I believe is related to TR#68884 which I found in Cell dissappears at drawing scale 1:100.  We currently have door tags created with the Place DataGroup Annotation tool because we use Drawing Extractions.  Because of the issues we've been having, we started placing the annotations in the same file as the 3D doors.  We extract the plans with walls, doors, windows, and annotations without incident typically to 1/8"=1'-0".  We then reference the extracted file into a drawing model which is 2D.  Then we reference the drawing model into a sheet model which is also 2D.  If the scale is always 1/8"=1'-0", then all is fine.  The problem occurs when we get to enlarged plans where we want to scale up a partial plan to something like 1/4"=1'-0".  The cells disappear in the sheet model completely (nest level 2).  They only disappear in the drawing model (nest depth 1) of the sheet model if we zoom in (a little).

Has anyone else experienced this?  I'll create a support ticket next.

Parents
  • AECOsim BD SS5 08.11.09.747

    Mark Mates - BIM Manager - Mason & Hanger

  • Make sure your DRAWING Model is 2d or you will always have issues with anything annotation.
    Also if you place your door annotations in the 3d it will screw you up.
    ALL annotations - whether created by extraction or by you directly should only be in the Drawing Model and NOT the 3d file.
    Problems arise if you do not follow this workflow.

    Ustn since 1988
    SS4 - i7-3.45Ghz-16 Gb-250/1Tb/1Tb-Win8.1-64b

    Eric D. Milberger
    Architect + Master Planner + BIM

    Senior  Master Planner NASA - Marshall Space Flight Center

    The Milberger Architectural Group, llc

  • Update:  That didn't help Steve although I think you meant to change the priority from 0 to a higher positive number.  I also tried to adjust the reference setting "Attach Level" to a level and set it's priority, but that didn't help either.  One thing that is showing promise is going back to extract with the option of "Preserve 3D Data".  This allows the files to be tagged via references such as 2D as Eric suggested.  So far the 2D file tagging is working and some of the other 3D file tags are not.  I don't know why, but we've been tagging doors and windows for extractions in 3D models and mostly the 3D master model for some time now.  I believe it was so that the designers only had to tag them in one place instead of 2 or 3 FP drawings, but I can't remember.  It also drastically reduces the file size.  For example, one of our floor plan extractions is ~36MB with preserve 3D data versus 1.5MB without.  I can live with that.  Another workaround and maybe this could be useful to Bentley programmers, is after extracting a file (we use the "Transpose XY Plane" option), open the extraction file run SetZ on all of the elements and set their value to 0... even though they appeared to be 0.  For whatever reason, this worked too, but it is a work around.


    Thanks for the help and I'll post updates to the progress.

    Mark Mates - BIM Manager - Mason & Hanger

    Answer Verified By: mmates 

  • Workflow is crucial.
    the reason this worked for me was:
    I created a design Model and BV
    I referenced the BV into a 3d Drawing Model and it annotated just fine
    I referenced the Drawing Model onto my sheets and the annotations either disappeared or Partially disappeared.
    I would see a work look as if it partially disappeared under a slab
    That was the eppiphany as the slab is 3d, the text is technically 3d and they are BOTH on the plane "0"
    They were fighting for their location and there is no order on which wins

    So if the WORKFLOW is Design Model 3d --> Drawing Model 2d, BV, Annotations --> Sheets
    That will at least eliminate some issues as is logical is it mimics hand done drawings
    Model --> Drawings, scaled xerox copies, annotations --> Sheets run thru a copier

    Ustn since 1988
    SS4 - i7-3.45Ghz-16 Gb-250/1Tb/1Tb-Win8.1-64b

    Eric D. Milberger
    Architect + Master Planner + BIM

    Senior  Master Planner NASA - Marshall Space Flight Center

    The Milberger Architectural Group, llc

  • Thanks for giving it a try, Mark. It's nothing I've had to use myself but thought it could be useful. Either way I'm glad to see that you do have a means to move forward. Defect 68884 is apparently resolved in the MicroStation EAP so we will eventually see that in ABD.



  • I hope that I am not missing something. I hear alot of workarounds and alot of solutions or ways to make this work. I don't have any of the issues you speak of by following the workflow and making sure BVs are referenced only into a 2d Drawing Model before placement on a sheet. That workflow works. And to be honest my model is a 2.5 Gb 3d Group of Ref Models and fully Modeled for all sections and plans and no issues. the workflow solves the issues.

    Ustn since 1988
    SS4 - i7-3.45Ghz-16 Gb-250/1Tb/1Tb-Win8.1-64b

    Eric D. Milberger
    Architect + Master Planner + BIM

    Senior  Master Planner NASA - Marshall Space Flight Center

    The Milberger Architectural Group, llc

  • I've been asked to verify the answer to this issue and although Steve's suggestion was a good one, it didn't help this particular situation. Our tags were created 1/8" above 0 (Z) as we had prior issues with the elements overlapping and hiding the tag. This causes the cells disappear when enlarging the annotation scale and zooming in. After moving the cell elements to 0 (Z), the issue didn't occur.

    Mark Mates - BIM Manager - Mason & Hanger

Reply
  • I've been asked to verify the answer to this issue and although Steve's suggestion was a good one, it didn't help this particular situation. Our tags were created 1/8" above 0 (Z) as we had prior issues with the elements overlapping and hiding the tag. This causes the cells disappear when enlarging the annotation scale and zooming in. After moving the cell elements to 0 (Z), the issue didn't occur.

    Mark Mates - BIM Manager - Mason & Hanger

Children
  • Hi Mark,
    So you are saying that when reverting back to placing the labels (in the 3D Model) at 0:0 instead of 1/8" above, that the disappearing annotation in the Drawing/Sheet Models is no more?



  • Why would you annotate in the 3d model. that is the problem as when made flat onto something like a sheet the confusion starts and something like a slab that is in the same plane of the text can take over.

    We had this happen and the slab would hide half the text as if it was sloped - which it was not

    The very simple solution is NOT TO ANNOTATE IN THE 3d model as that is for Model stuff
    Annotation a BV after it is placed within the 2D Drawing Model - IT HAS TO BE 2D
    Then place onto a sheet that is 2D - it has to be 2D. You can do it 3d but think logically - everything is now being presented as 2d so keep it 2d

    This will fix you issue without fail.

    Ustn since 1988
    SS4 - i7-3.45Ghz-16 Gb-250/1Tb/1Tb-Win8.1-64b

    Eric D. Milberger
    Architect + Master Planner + BIM

    Senior  Master Planner NASA - Marshall Space Flight Center

    The Milberger Architectural Group, llc