Hi Jeff,
The logic of Your response makes sense from a Developer's standpoint but not from a user's workflow and usability standpoint (or even from an Administrator or BIM Manager standpoint). Because of this problem, It makes it impossible for me to utilize the DG system with walls at this time.
Let's start from the Administrator or BIM Manager standpoint. There is no reason in hell I would want a user to select a wall part and NOT have the correct DG entry used. This in itself can cause numerous problems; especially with Building View symbology issues. It makes no sense NOT to keep them synchronized and from a usability standpoint; I feel it is a necessity.
Next, from the user's workflow and usability standpoint:
Setup: I add all the NBBJ standard interior partition parts to BA V8i (to the parts and DG system). I also include the other properties such as: Fire Rating, and Tag, ect... for each DG system entry.
Scenario: A user clicks the Place Wall tool and forgets to use the Place Wall dialog to choice a fire rated partition type but instead selects the family/part then places a wall (this will happen since the user was using BA 8.5 and BA XM for years). Because of this "problem" I cannot be reasonably sure that the partitions placed into a model will contain the correct DG system values. The User may believe they are placing a fire rated partition however when it was placed, the Place Wall dialog's current DG system entry points to a toilet partition. If this happens, any information I extract from the DG system will be invalid.
The fact that changing the DG system entry changes the active part even further complicates the problem. The user will see the active part change whenever a new partition is chosen. This will focus the user on the family/part dialog box; the next time they need to place a partition, they will think of the family/part dialog box...
Yes, proper training should reinforce the use of using the DG system; not the family/part dialog box however as we all know there are always going to be users that revert back to their old ways or simply forget.
There needs to be only one way to select a wall type in BA; having two visible ways to do this is a recipe for disaster. In my opinion this is a serious flaw in BA V8i and needs to be resolved. The only solutions I can think of:
1. Synchronize the family/part dialog box and Place Wall dialog's DG system selection item.
2. Hide the wall parts from the family/part dialog box.
As a work-around I may rename my part's family names so that they begin with the letter "z". At least this way these families will be at the very bottom of the list. This won't make that much of a difference since the family will be active the next time a user places a wall using the DG system.
Sincerely,
Dan Tartaglia Design Technology NBBJ 223 Yale Avenue North SEATTLE WA 98109 Direct: 206.223.5109 http://www.nbbj.com
(Response from Jeff Ashley)
The DG wall catalog contains the part definition for each wall catalog instance. The DG wall placement dialog will set the active part to the assignment in the DG catalog, however if the user decides to override the catalog value it will not change the catalog definition. The goal is the user will not need to interact very often w/ the P&F system will they are placing walls from the catalog.
The workflow should be
1) Select wall from wall catalog, Place wall 2) Click some other command 3) Place wall, since it remembers the last catalog selected.
Jeff Ashley, AIA Associate Product Manager, Bentley Architecture Bentley Systems p.703.707.0880 x108 m.703.994.2590 f.703.707.8881
From: Dan Tartaglia [mailto:DTartaglia@nbbj.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:35 PM To: Jeffrey Ashley; Steve Stevens;
Subject: BA V8i - The active Family and Part do not stay in synch with the Place Wall tool's dialog box
Hi Steve and Jeff,
In XM and lower versions you could:
1. Click the Place Wall tool. 2. Change the active Family and Part. 3. Place the wall. 4. Click on some other command. 5. Click the Place Wall tool. The active Family and Part will revert back to the last Part used in step #2.
In BA V8i this behavior no longer happens because of the Wall DataGroup System entries and the Place Wall dialog box part/DG selector. Is the intention to only use the Place Wall dialog box when selecting a Part to use to place walls?
My initial reaction/opinion; when a Part is selected using the Family and Part dialog, the Place Wall dialog box part/DG selector should change to match. They should stay synchronized.
This is a really good thread!
It is worth a re-cap on why Bentley are pursuing this change. The concept of the 100% datagroup system, meaning that every item placed has datagroup type date associated with it. I believe the reasoning behind this (and it is user driven) is related to control of object data and subsequent complete exchange using IFC.
I agree with many of the comments here butI also think that the end use of the tool has not been fully thought through either. I speak from the context that I have been using BA v8i since release on a live construction project of roughly $15M.
I have found that the taking walls into the dgsystem has worked best at a project level to provide a reductive list of project specific walls and compound walls rather than as a monolithic port of ones entire parts set. This is in my opinion much more user friendly.
There are problems with removing the generic wall tool perhaps not at the construction info stage but certainly at the earlier stages of the project because it ties you down to being very specific. What I would like to be able to do particularly in this context is start off using part only form placement and then be able to convert a non-dg wall to a dg wall when I start to have a better idea of what it is.
Lets keep this thread going there is some real mileage in it.
Also would all of you be willing to say whether you are actually using v8i on a live project. Thinking about using it is fundamentally different to actually using it.
Rob
Can I also add that the real benefit for architects is if they can see the data in the dg system. One of the problems of putting lots of non-graphical data on elements in a big model is that you can't see it. At the moment. For my money a datagroup heads-up display would be invaluable. I don't mean the spread sheet thing that we have either.
If I could look at a floor plan and switch between graphical colour display of different properties like fire rating, acoustic rating, structural type, thermal performance etc then I'd be able to see all my data and make sure it was correct.
There is always a degree of 'debugging' of a 3D model and as we start to add data to all the elements managing whether the right data is on the elements in the model. A graphical way is the best way - always in my opinion.
The other thing I'd love is the equivilent of an eye-dropper tool for forms. The eye-dropper concept/interface seem to have made it into all other types of application I don't see why we can't have it.
Robert Klaschka
Hi, Robert,
By the term "eye-dropper" are you referring to being able to select one form to set the parameters for placing another just like it with the exact same properties?
Thanks,
Steve Stevens [Bentley]
Yes exactly that - I believe there is a key combo - but its hard to remember.
I'm also using BA v8i in live projects. As robert suggests a graphical display of the info would be most helpful, perhaps not a permanent display but a display style that could be applied, ie which showed up fire rated partitions or load bearing walls simply and instantly, as opposed to reporting on the datagroup then searching for the elements you want. Also, and I'm not too sure about how this works but does everything have to be through the datagroup? I mean, does the element link to the datagroup and pull its info from there or is the info part of the element? could this datagroup info not just be attached to the element and displayed/edited in an expanded element info/datagroup box?
Also, brilliant suggestion of the eyedropper Rob. select your tool, hold alt+click the element you want to match. settings update, done. Basically just like the match attributes alt+click but for parts and relative to the tool you are using.ie, using wall tool would mean it would match part/symbology and height, length and thickness.
Hmmm... Regarding the Eyedropper, perhaps adding a Match button in the Modify Wall tool would work?
We have that tool already "Match form Attribute"
But it doesn't work and as I was told by the programmers it is "as designed"
Ustn since 1988SS4 - i7-3.45Ghz-16 Gb-250/1Tb/1Tb-Win8.1-64bEric D. MilbergerArchitect + Master Planner + BIMSenior Master Planner NASA - Marshall Space Flight CenterThe Milberger Architectural Group, llc