Structural data

Hi

I'm trying to clean up the definitions when placing beams, columns, walls and slabs to fit our way of work. But I can't get rid of the Structura Data, it don't show in the catalog editor. Super annoying when the betongbalk (concrete beam) has default material steel. 

Any ideas? Running connect edition, Aecosim update 4.

Regards, 

Roebrt

Parents
  • Hi. 

    Yes, but as I said the definition structuraldata seem to stand out. As I tried to show with my image, the structuraldata definition is no where to be found in the catalog editor. It's not included in the catalog type properties either. 

  • Thanks for that. What I'm trying to achieve is consistency throughout our workflow. It would be really hard for our users to understand why they would have to attach structural data to a wall, all walls they draw is structural, so there really should be a way to place a wall the same way the place a beam. 

    We are very bad at adding BIM-information to elements at the moment, but we want to increase that use. Eg. adding the grade of material, their fire protection properties and so on. But to do that, it must be easy, and definitely the same way to do it no matter the type of element. I know for a fact that a maximum 10% of our users will use that add structural, even if we told them to always do it. As I said, for us there's no difference between a wall and a beam, both will be load bearing. 

    Next confusing thing is that the structural data is there, under element information, even for walls. But greyed out. If there is no structural data attached, I don't want it shown greyed out, I want it to not show at all. 

    And for me as an administrator its terrible that the structural properties aren't modified in the same way as other definitions. Especially that I can't hide them in an easy way. 

    Secondly: 

    I now see that I have problems adding this structural data to elements. I started by adding the material under the family/part editor. This shows when I place a beam, both under the place beam, and when placed, under the element information. But when I try to add a property in the place beam tool, for instance a grade, it doesn't show when in the element properties for that element. 

    When I try to use the tool you talk about, "add structural" it I get an error saying "The TriForma Part "Betongvägg platsgjuten" doesn't include analytical information.  Edit the part definition to include analytical information." What do I have to do to fix that? 

    Last: 

    Is there a way to make lists in these structural attributes in the way I can make lists in definitions?

    Seems it makes more sense to just hide the structural data in our seed preference file, and make definitions for those properties instead, at least for us how don't export our models to RAM or similar. 

  • Hi Robert, you're welcome. I'll try to break this down in this reply (long reply).

    Structural Data

    From what I gather in your reply, in your situation, I want to recommend that you don't need to utilize Structural Data. As I mentioned this was used when exporting-round-tripping directly to RAM or STAAD analysis programs (some had to be defined for the exporting to work properly). That capability was in earlier V8i versions and has been superseded by the newer ISM technology. Having values for structural data could be used in ISM but isn't imperative. In the ISM process defaults can be set for material grades, but is more so handled in the analytical applications. The structural engineer assigns them there, if brought back into AECOsim those values would get populated in the importing process.

    Organizations using this methodology in earlier versions still have it as an option in CONNECT Edition.

    I don't see a way to not display the structural data at this point of CONNECT Edition releases, I am pinging colleagues to double-check.

    I'll address your question about the error you get and the grayed out properties at the end. That being said let's look at the DataGroup properties...

    DataGroup Properties—BIM Information

    For your BIM information we should consider the DataGroup properties. By default, for framing components, we have these structural catalog definitions:

    • Structural  Parameters
    • Steel Beam Results
    • Structural Framing Common
    • Object Structural Usage
    • Object LEED
    • Structural Quantities

    And these common definitions:

    • Object Classification
    • Object Fire Resistance
    • Object Identity
    • ObjectPhasing
    • etc.

    You get the idea. So we could use the Identification—ID | Type ID for the member Type (Beam, Column, etc.), the Identification—ID | Item ID for the Mark (C-1, B-2, etc.) and the Object Identity—ID | Description for the Material (Steel, Concrete), the Identification—ID | Notes for the grade (A992, etc.) and the Construction Phase—Phase for Status (New Construction, Existing to Remain, etc.). All this BIM information can be used in schedules for reporting capabilities.

    You can create your own catalog items with default values and/or pick-lists for your modelers to select from less work for them. Also you can create your own custom definitions for any information you want. Achieved with the definition editor and catalog editor.

    Properties Dialog, Property Panel and Building Element Info dialog

    On the grayed out properties, keep in mind the Properties dialog is for reviewing the information on building components, whereas the Property Panel is used to edit values, the Property Panel is used during placement and during editing (the header will say Modify Structural Attributes during editing).

    I did add some values to the Structural Data on some components in a model and I see them in the Properties dialog. Note that AECOsim (OpenBuildings) has it's own properties dialog: Building Element Info in which you can edit these values. I think of the Properties dialog as 'generic', it can be used to modify primitive elements like changing the color of lines, circles, etc.

    Load Bearing

    When placing walls there is a Structural Usage definition category with Structural | Function and Structural | Material. The Structural | Function value is a list with two options: Structural and Non-Structural. This is designed to differentiate load bearing and non load bearing walls as the wall tool is shared between the structural and architectural disciplines.

    Analytical Information

    Just so you know what is happening with your trying to use the Add Structural tool (as mentioned before I don't think you necessarily need these). In the Family/Part Editor the Parts View options include (among others) Definition and Analytical Information. There are two Part Types available in the Definition: TriForma (goes way back in the history of the software) and Structural, when set to Structural there is an option to "Include analytical information". Once that is set then in the Analytical Information Parts View you can then click in the Analytical column to turn it on.

    I'll leave at this for now. If needed I can delve into setting up the DataGroup Types and Items as I note in the DataGroup Properties—BIM Information section above for adding definitions, creating custom items and pick lists.

    Kudos to you and your team for wanting to add consistent BIM information.

                                                          



  • Great outline, Paul!

    Robert, if you're interested the Help includes information about the Part Type column here: https://docs.bentley.com/LiveContent/web/AECOsim%20Building%20Designer%20Help-v5/en/AddPartDefinition.html

    As Paul described, the "Add Structural tool" was intended for analytical translation, which is why the Part Type needs to be set to Structural and not TriForma.



  • A big thanks for this long explanation. As I see it I will change our preference seed to not include structural data right away. (It don't work properly for me to add structural as I mentioned above, but no need for a fix, we won't use it). 

    I'll then add some new definitions to my catalog items which I can configure with lists and so on, after my own liking. 

    But it would be great if you could add a way to turn of structural data in another way. We've just released connect to our users, so now all of them will have to reset their upf-file. 

  • Oh, no. I misread your first reply. I thought I could hide the structural data for beams and columns in the preference dialog. But I guess that's not the case? That only affects the add structural dialog? 

    Then I way to hide those properties would be highly appreciated.

Reply Children
  • Hi Robert,

    If you're specifically wanting to hide the Structural or Structural Data tabs in the Building Element Info tool, I don't think will be possible.   That data predates the DataGroup System itself and is an inherent attribute of Structural components.   However, you did mention earlier that you see this info greyed out for walls, so perhaps I'm not looking in the right place.



  • Ok. Yes, I can see it greyed out for walls. They are structural (in the sense of structural/non-structural definition), but I haven't added structural to them with the tool you mentioned above. Not sure how those circumstances affect my wall in what way. 

    But as I said I'm looking for consistency. I need the same properties available when placing both beams and walls. If it's the structural data, I want a way to create lists, choose if it's supposed to be a number or so on, as I can with definitions. 

    Or, I want to be able to place beams without the structural data shown in the place structural dialog. 

    Robert

  • Hi Robert,

    Walls (and Slabs)  have never had Structural attributes since their origins are as Architectural objects. That is why both respond to the Add Structural tool to add those attributes required for certain downstream processes.  But they still differ from "native" Structural components such as Beams and Columns.   So off the top of my head I'm not sure how to best approach your goal of having the same list of properties for both, particularly during placement.  Or is reporting the more important aspect?



  • Ok. I'm not sure how structural engineers work in the US or any other part of the world. But for me, and our users, there's is no differences in what properties needed for a beam or a wall. But I get your point too.

    A way to customize the GUI to make it look the same way would be great. Let's say a user is drawing a foundation. They start with the strip footing (by placing a beam) and they add the material, grade and a few other properties to the structural data. When they place the foundation slab, there is no structural data. So they add the data in some other definition. When creating a report to tell the contracter how much concrete is needed, there's a big risk of getting only the amount needed for the slab och the strip footing, since the data is added to different definitions. 

    So in order to get a good reporting tool, the options on placement are the most important one. Preferably a way to hide the structural data in our case, since we don't use it, and it don't have the same customizable abilities with lists and so on, as the definitions have. 

    Robert