Just wondering if I can have a separate tool setting dialog for the stfplace commands (column, beams etc.) rather than as a ribbon? I have my ribbon in compact mode, I access to my required tools through toolbars. Everytime I place something that involve the Placement ribbon, I have to click on the ribbon to get to the settings.
We found a defect in the ribbon where it's not behaving correctly in compact mode. It should be switching to the contextual tab so you don't need to click on that tab manually. It's supposed to switch to that ribbon tab whenever you launch a command that uses it and return you to the previous tab when you reset.
As time goes on, I would expect to see more placement options in the ribbon, not in a separate dialog.
Can I submit a change request to have tool settings stays in structural property panel? I just can't understand why we need 3 different places for tool settings.
Can you please share the defect number? so that I can submit a SR to track it.
Also to clarify, the ribbon does switch to Placement ribbon, however, because it is in compact mode, I have to manually expand it to get to my settings. The fact that I have to refer to the ribbon for placement settings is already a massive time waster.
Great, thank you. Just wanted to be sure it was official.
The defect I was referring to was something we found internally, where the contextual ribbon wasn't always showing the placement options. Sometimes it was showing the non-contextual "modify" version of the ribbon tab instead of the version that's supposed to be shown when a placement command is running or an element is selected.
It required a few back-and-forth clicks on the ribbon tabs to get it to behave. That's already fixed.
Have you tried working with the ribbon open instead of in compact mode? I'm curious to know why you prefer keeping the ribbon in compact mode when ti seems like expanding it would speed things up for you.
Below you mentioned other things in the ribbon not working correctly. Can you give me more detail on what's not working correctly?
TomWaltz said: I'm curious to know why you prefer keeping the ribbon in compact mode when ti seems like expanding it would speed things up for you.
To be honest Tom, I can't think of any scenario that would make the ribbon speed things up over the good old toolbars. Taking the placing primary steel column as an example:
1 - Mouse from middle of screen goes to ribbon to activate tool.
2 - Mouse from ribbon goes to datagroup dialog to select correct section profile.
3 - Mouse from datagroup dialog goes back to ribbon to select rotation, placement point etc.
4 - Mouse from ribbon back to middle of screen for placement.
Full circle around screen, even before you're able to place anything in the model.
Ribbon is in compact mode because we have no use for it, and keeping it open is just a waste of screen space, which is never enough for a designer. Whatever tools I need, it is always accessible through custom toolbars, no need to switch between workflows, tabs, hidden menu etc. I'm curious as to which workflow would you have utilised ribbon over task menu/toolbar that would make it speedier than SS6, as I'm yet to see any speed gain, ever, in working with ribbon.
As for ribbon issues, if you have a look at my SR list, there are a few of them in there.
Couldn't agree more.
I'll take a look at your SR list.
I'm going to ask some dumb questions probably just to make sure I understand the steps in your workflow. Please don't think I'm arguing :-)
To me, it seems like 2 and 3 would reduce mouse movement in the reverse order. Is there something in your workflow that requires you to do #2 first?
How is this workflow different from the toolbars? It seems like the number and type of steps be the same, except with the toolbars along the side instead of the top (with the addition of the extra click to open the ribbon when it's set to compact mode).
Do you find yourself changing between tabs often?
Just to give a little background, when we did the command sorting, one of the goals was to reduce both the number of commands on the screen at one time (reducing visual clutter and giving us enough space to use large-sized icons so you have bigger targets to aim for when clicking) and the number of times you need to manually change tabs (which is the number one complaint we saw in researching other products using a ribbon). Both of these goals were to start to bring us into alignment with the research on what makes products more "usable" in general.
'Just to give a little background, when we did the command sorting, one of the goals was to reduce both the number of commands on the screen at one time (reducing visual clutter and giving us enough space to use large-sized icons so you have bigger targets to aim for when clicking)'
And yet simple things like docking the ribbon weren't checked to make sure they worked.
I would have also thought that popset would be part of that, yet no.
Sorry Tom, but the flow and the issues with this interface leave me thinking of times past when we begged for change when we had major interface changes like this.
'Is there something in your workflow that requires you to do #2 first?'
If you have the ribbon docked there are far more clicks. The moment the separate dialog for gatagroup etc. started we stopped having an interface that cleared automatically when we started to model. It's just another potential for issues like we have with v8i.
Add to that you have to try and get rid of the Property Panel.
Next, one too many right clicks and it's all the way back to the Structural Group again. I don't see any need for the Place group to disappear.
What do you mean by docking the ribbon? Technically, you can't undock it. It's always located at the top of the screen and can't be moved like other dialogs. "Docking" means to take a floating dialog and attach it to a border of the screen. Do you mean something else by that?
Also, what do you mean by "Add to that you have to try and get rid of the Property Panel."? Why are you trying to get rid of the property panel? Don't you need it to enter the properties you want to change?
You're going to get sick of me asking questions, but why is going back to the Structural tab a bad thing when no commands are running?
TomWaltz said: Is there something in your workflow that requires you to do #2 first?
without choosing the correct section shape (i shape vs channel vs angle), it is a little bit hard to work out where the placement point should be, and the rotation angle, and local offset, and placement method etc.
However, regardless of working order, 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 vs 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 would yield the same amount of mouse travel, does it not? Arguably, doing step 3 before 2 would takes a bit more time as you have work out the settings mentally in your head.
TomWaltz said:How is this workflow different from the toolbars? It seems like the number and type of steps be the same, except with the toolbars along the side instead of the top
The difference lies in the placement settings now is split from the property panel. Hence the title of my post, it's not "get rid of ribbon". It's about bringing back the previous arrangement for structural placement workflow where all settings are in 1 place, less moving about the screen.
TomWaltz said:Do you find yourself changing between tabs often?
TomWaltz said:products more "usable" in general.
Not in this case, it does not. Please refer back to my second paragraph of this reply.
TomWaltz said:What do you mean by docking the ribbon
I think bear meant different states of ribbons (compact vs expanded)
TomWaltz said:large-sized icons so you have bigger targets to aim for when clicking
I find this is actually quite distracting when you want to find the small icons. After a while, you remember where all the icons are. However, then you try to locate something that is smaller in size, it takes a little longer to locate them.
Again, I have nothing against or for ribbon. It's fine. It's ok, I just don't see a use for it. Just don't force it upon people. What was your team's rationalisation about having mandatory contextual ribbon tab that permanently sits in the ribbon while the ribbon is in compact mode. I'd love to hear about that.
Just a side note, a little more than a decade ago, task menu was all the rage. We tested it, saw little to no value to it, and stayed with toolboxes. Our sentiment for ribbon at the moment is pretty much the same, adding the frustration that we are now forced to use it.
I don't mind the questions Tom, if it helps people understand the issues as we see them.
'"Docking" means to take a floating dialog and attach it to a border of the screen. Do you mean something else by that?'
Docked, hidden, minimise. All just names, but I believe that CE calls it minimised:
'"Add to that you have to try and get rid of the Property Panel."? '
If I've finished with it and want to use other commands it won't just go away. I have to close the dialog to get rid of it. If I go from placing a member to needing to the copy command the dialog, even though blanked out, is still there.