Drawing revisions?

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:40:03 GMT

These are two issues

One for working in the models and drawings

and One for notating the changes in the 2d files

All our work goes to the job site in 2d files so that is a major focus.

Easy way would be to submit an entire job. You would have to have some coordination with the sheet borders

Then when you start making changes tell the computer you are now working on Bulletin or Revision and it will number it accordingly.

Then all changes would be prescribed from-to a date

Then when in a drawing model it should hilite all items within that date while in the drawing model not the actual 3d file

Then you can notate and the computer keeps up witha notation level (Rev1, Rev2, etc) whichever is appropriate

Let the computer keep up which annotations are displayed (all or current revision)

Then the sheet would look to see if any revision marks are shown or NOT in the visible portions of the drawings and add that to a revision list for that sheet.

Process works with Element attributes, smarter sheets which are already needed for sheet titling and coordination, and revisions

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:33:33 GMT

I am in a drawing view where I need to make my Revision marks.

I tried what you suggested and nothing happens.

If I go to the model I am out of the files I am working in

Re: Drawing revisions?

Thomas Voghera — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:28:06 GMT

Eric

Go to EDIT>SELECT BY ATTRIBUTES>BUILDING>>DATE AND TIME and you can filter out what you want as long as it is 3d TF-elements.

Don't know why it doesn't work in BV/DVs.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Phil Chouinard — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 02:24:28 GMT

If by "revision" you mean "bubble" and you are expecting revisions to be listed in the title block, we do not have any of that. That said, we have thought about it, but there is no way to hook everything up and make it customizable, etc. Design History is a more basic capability that simply allows you to see differences. It is a more efficient and convenient way to make copies of your files at milestones.

If the structural guy understands design history, they will have no trouble identifying the changes in the 3rd model and in the drawings.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Wed, 09 Feb 2011 01:42:36 GMT

There are two issues here. The drafting and control of the 2d cocuments. A method to keep up and deonte the active change. (Revision 5 is bubbled and active and FOUND on all documents while all old Revisions are no longer visible. Each sheet has the total revisions that effect that sheet. And a method that no revision has gone UN-noted. And How do I know that a changes I've made are identified so that I may make annotations ie. R5

Then there are the changes and how they are visible to others workign on the drawings. If I give my model with changes made for two weeks to my structural HOW will be know what has changed in the 3d model or 2d drawings so that he makes changes to his drawings and then annotates accordingly.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Phil Chouinard — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 05:06:32 GMT

There is a great deal of functionality available through Design History, and some of that has been described in this thread. That said, can you provide specific for instances to articulate what you mean by "drawing revisions is typically a BA or building tool not a general drafting tool, especially when combined with BA features which limit MS usage of those files." TIA

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 03:54:01 GMT

but drawing revisions is typically a BA or building tool not a general drafting tool, especially when combined with BA features which limit MS usage of those files.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Steve Cocchi — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:48:32 GMT

OK, let's see what happens. It may be that DH doesn't support the specific workflow you're using, I'm not sure. But the Platform support group is usually best suited to address DH questions/issues since it is a MicroStation feature.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 01:14:24 GMT

It was supprot through the BA support when I tried to do this a few months ago. I am going to try it it it is just so cumbersom to try without damaging production. I've recently contacted MS support and they were to call me back and I made them aware of this post too.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Steve Cocchi — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:48:36 GMT

Eric, I'm a little unclear about your response...

What does "there is little help with history" mean? Are you referring to the online help?

Also, when you say that support told you that you can't use DH with Architecture, do you mean in any fashion whatsoever? Obviously that's not true, it should work as it does with plain MicroStation. Or was this using a specific workflow or process that DH simply does not support?

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:43:19 GMT

No I have not. As tech support ahs said "there is little help with history and they don't even know how to use the stuff. They actually told me I can't use history with BA and reference files.

Re: Drawing revisions?

dominic Seah — Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:51:41 GMT

Sonya,

I think your last post is a good account of the unhappy transitional state that we are in.

1. Rollbacks:

Are seldom straightforward, which only reinforces the need for robust versioning tools. Since comparisons will be an essential to the versioning process, an effective way to switch between and overlay/compare different versions is needed. Have a look at these vids on CoCreate Model Manager.

Changes will be needed across multiple files, so a dynamically-updated dependency graph would be a good way to help keep track of the changes. ProjectWise / Kollabnet's Design Map could be integrated into the Project Explorer?

2. General arrangement v assembly v component drawings/models:

The MM vids also show that versioning and comparing segmented parts/components can be relatively straightforward and quick. The same approach can be scaled up to deal with assemblies or groups of components. This approach also allows revision numbers to be propagated bi-directionally between parent and child models in a reasonably comprehensible way. Some rules based processing will be needed.

Regardless, all of this can still leave check-in management so tedious that there most users will bypass and misuse the system.

Here, I think the problem for Mstn users is not having the flexibility to have multiple files open so that the changes can be 'played out' across multiple files. This way, the user can see the results before committing the changes. Minimising asynchronous, long transactions that burden users with subsequent transaction management has got to be a no-brainer.

CoCreate MM provides the option for 'top down' saves. This saves multiple 'activated' models to their individual files according to their dependencies, while versioning the changes according to user defined rules. Mstn really needs to follow thru on its hidden ability to save to multiple files.

CoCreate also highlights the advantage/need for component based structures over the existing layer based one for BIM, as far as versioning is concerned.

3. Data Integration:

There will be schedules, specs, change orders, photos, pdf's etc, in addition to dgn's. I think we agree that BIM means that coordination is a central goal, and must cover non-CAD data as well, especially if they can drive CAD data.

Data Group info needs to be granular enough to allow 'parameter' level versioning/tracking. Maybe it should follow OpenPlant PID in the way the parametric info is stored with the cell/component/dgn. I believe Speedikon 8.9 will use dgnlibs as the repository and can access the parametric data in referenced files. Structure's new ISM also uses the dgn as a repository. Write-enabled i-models?

I think a key part of versioning is how elements are locked or checked out. Mstn's locking is still file-based. There should be the option to check out elements out at the sub-file or component level. OpenPlant / PlantSpace's MCS workflow could be modified to restrict the granularity to the cell or named group or model level This will be a necessary precondition for keeping versioning manageable, I think.

4. Archiving:

The Packager does not seem to cover dataset/data group. And what about managing what is replaced when rolling back? Data will always be distributed across many files, which will make reinstating rollback info a time consuming and very error-prone, iterative process that will prolong user downtime.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Thomas Voghera — Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:23:02 GMT

Stuartw, Eric and everybody

Jeff Ashley pointed me to EDIT>SELECT BY ATTRIBUTES>>CRITERIA>>BUILDING>>DATE AND TIME

Anyone tested?

Re: Drawing revisions?

Samuel Wilson — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:36:59 GMT

Please see my replay to Sonya.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Samuel Wilson — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:36:40 GMT

Have you looked at using tags in design history? Tags are designed to allow you to identify a point in the history of a project across many files. When you reach a milestone, you can use the batch processor to identify the current/latest revision of all files in the project with a chosen tag. Later, you can do several things with that tag. The simplest and most elegant use of tags is to attach a reference file using a history tag. That shows the reference file and all of its nested attachments as of the tagged point in history. You could also restore one or many files to a point in history by referring to a tag.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Eric Milberger — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 02:48:55 GMT

I NEED TO DO TWO THINGS

1. SENDING DRAWINGS TO OTHERS AND THEM EASILIY SEE MY CHANGES SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE THEIRS

2. SHOW CHANGES ON ALL MY SHEETS

When I compare to Revit I can see the changesthat have been made since last review, accept, ignor or comment on the change.

This is better than me working for 6 days 14 hrs each and then trying to remember what I've changed. Plus I may not have even opened the sheet I have changed even though I changed the model.

Then I need help in keeping up which what should have a bubble. It is not like the old days where you change one item on a 2d drawing and bubble it. Then I have to erase all R1 bubbles before I do R1 bubbles. I need to note these changes on the sheets and keep them in order. I need help.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Phil Chouinard — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:59:17 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Voghera"]

This is a BA forum, so we are not talking about PW. We are talking about using DH in BA workflows.

[/quote]

This community's main focus is on the Bentley Building Analysis and Design product line, which includes Bentley Architecture but is not exclusive to it. That said, the discussion has expanded into the topic of a managed environment (i.e. how do you manage change, etc.), which is right where ProjectWise applies.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Thomas Voghera — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:42:20 GMT

Sonya

Printing new prints is NOT the reason I look at DH. As you say we can save pdfs.

I believe Stuartw, Eric, I and others earlier have the same problems/thoughts about a changing multi-file 3d-model and a/ notifing collegues and consultants about changes and b/ doing the right clouding in the drawings (to put it simple)

DV/BV also intruduces new (relative a DEM output) causes of geometry to be different in the "drawings". I am thinking of the scenario where a part is changed and someone later open BA and the file may look different even if no geometry in the 3d is changed.

And as you say I also have infrequent situations where changes are needed to old output. That can be updating drawings for authorities, lease or the like.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Thomas Voghera — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:12:38 GMT

Phil

This is a BA forum, so we are not talking about PW. We are talking about using DH in BA workflows.

Re: Drawing revisions?

stuartw — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:05:20 GMT

Phil,

Who's post are you responding too?

Re: Drawing revisions?

Phil Chouinard — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:46:53 GMT

Thank you for providing some context regarding this. On its own, Design History handles revisions very well... and we do mean VERY well, since various aspects within MicroStation DO take into account references in the context of Design History. A good amount of information on Design History can be found in Help > Contents > Setting Up Projects > Design History, that would be well worth taking a look at regarding this.

That said, the "right choices", "importance", etc. of any particular step in a workflow (as it appears you are inferring) is exclusively a user decision and not something that a computer program can determine, so is really mutually exclusive of what Design History (on its own) can provide. But it is something that a managed environment (such as ProjectWise) might be able to provide for you.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Sonya Radywyl — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:34:22 GMT

The only reason to use DH for revisions would be to print out another copy, which can be fixed by (as many do) by printing out a pdf and creating a merged DGN as a snapshot of the sheet.

Alternatively use the packager. (The only thing to be aware of is that all of your files need a unique file name as they will all end up in the same folder).

You'll be able to open the plot sheet and it will be an identical copy to what was issued.

Perhaps a "save revision" which works like the packager would be a good compromise?

The other reason to use DH would be to roll back to a previous version of the file.

In my experience frequently revisions are never a simple "roll back" to a previous version of the model.

We handle this by copying the relevant file(s) prior to making the change. This lets us recover/copy/paste any model info we might need to roll back to (or have accidently deleted).

As we would have anywhere from 10-150 model files (and hundreds/thousands of extraction/annotation/plot files) on a project the idea of manging any single version across that amount of files sounds a little crazy.

Managing when/how models (and data) get updated is part of managing the BIM process. We might hold off making a change to the model until after the revision has been issued and archived.

At major milestones we archive a set of all the dgn files (3d models, 2d models/annotations/extractions, plotsheets). If needed you can resurrect any drawing/model from this information (which happens infrequently enough to not be a problem). This also forms a fixed status set if any additional documents have to be extracted from it in the future. Provided all of your files within the project have unique filenames this isn't hard to do as you can just dump them all in the same folder and let the reference file default search paths do the rest.

Re: Drawing revisions?

Thomas Voghera — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:59:05 GMT

Phil, are you refering my comment?

In the context and workflows we are talking about there will be many times you will need to make the right choices. There are no manager for handling DH in many files and many references.

What is it you don't understand?

Re: Drawing revisions?

stuartw — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:39:53 GMT

Overall I'm getting that BA (and Revit) doesn't handle revisions very well, and perhaps hasn't been thought through. At the end of the day it's the issue of drawings (whether paper or electronic) and their subsequent revisions that is important.. This doesn't appear to be easy at the moment.

Is it not possible to extract 2D models (not DV's) of the various views (plans, elevations and sections) to create references to attach to the drawings sheets? The 3D model could then be updated (with or without DH) and then new 2D refs. extracted to create the revised drawing sheets. Is this possible?

Re: Drawing revisions?

stuartw — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:21:34 GMT

[quote user="PWArchitects"]

Long before the advent of DVs & DH, we implemented a "discipline" of preparing a sheet for issue and then creating a pdf file of the drawing, thereby providing an archive version of the issue, available for re-issuing at any time under its Revision letter/number. It separates the rolling updates from the formal issues.

[/quote]

I like this idea and think that it could work.

[quote user="PWArchitects"]

If DH is implemented at the beginning of a model file then the major revisions conincide with the Sheet revisions and drawing issues, with scope for incremental change in between allowing you to roll back to a prior arrangement when needed.

Does this help?

[/quote]

It does help although with DH doesn't it bloat the file? I'm worried that we might end up with very large 3D models, which with our aging pc's may cause a performance problem