Bentley Architecture vs Revit vs Archicad

Thanks to everyone for your responses to my original post – it’s great to hear people’s BIM experiences and views.

Travis, seeing that you offered the longest response and the fact that you are a representative of Bentley I will direct my response to you if I may…

Firstly, I agree with you entirely when you discuss BIM as A ‘Collaborative Process’. BIM is a collaborative method of working and not simply a debate about software. This is a very common misconception within the industry. That said, in order for BIM (as a process) to be possible it does require the BIM technology (i.e. software & hardware) to work effectively and this is why such emphasis and discussion revolves around this at the moment. This is why I am currently evaluating all the leading BIM software out there - so that we as a company can try to answer our own internal questions / doubts rather than simply sticking with our existing software provider (Bentley) or listening and falling for the marketing spiel from any of the BIM software providers.

As far as I am concerned the key to BIM is in the letter ‘I’ – ‘Information’ and how this data is linked to entities within the model and how is this information is easily added, interrogated, extracted, and used by the different parties on a project. Every BIM program is capable of building 3D models but ultimately BIM (as a process) falls apart completely if the information contained within the model cannot be exchanged effectively and accurately between platforms. As an aside I saw a webinar slide recently that showed a test project where the same 3D model had incurred information loss and alteration when it was passed between differing platforms – a sort of ‘BIM Chinese whispers’ I suppose which clearly goes to highlight the need for all the key providers to ‘collaborate’ (funny that!) in sorting out interoperability issues. In my opinion BIM will not succeed until the fundamental issue of interoperability is addressed.

In terms of software I accept that all the leading platforms have their relative merits and drawbacks and that there is no perfect platform out there. In fact I am just as aware of the issues with Autodesk (thanks for your feedback Brian J!) as with Bentley. However, it seems from my first-hand experience (as well as the other contributors to this discussion) that Bentley has more than its fair share of drawbacks - and this is leading many in the industry to regard Autodesk as the safer bet out there at the moment.

I must admit I am reassured by your comment about Bentley recognising that there are deficiencies with their software and that they try hard to remedy them. On reflection maybe my comment about Bentley being ‘arrogant’ was a tad too harsh (I had just spent a morning trying to get to grips with Bentley Architecture that day with frustrating progress and rubbish help files!). I suppose what I was trying to communicate was that ever since I started using Microstation 10 years ago I have always felt that Bentley have been lagging behind other CAD software (especially in terms of features and usability) and over my 10 year horizon have come to regard Bentley as complacent and only playing catch-up in the marketplace rather than trying to lead it. I feel that this is still the same with BIM.

Don’t get me wrong I do understand how powerful Bentley’s suite of applications are (in theory) and I do generally understand and agree with the underlying strategic approach with regards to how Bentley develop their software but my fundamental issue is that the interface and tools are so extraordinary complex and clunky (especially when compared to competing software) that it makes it virtually impossible for average users to harness the power of the application. For instance in my office I am probably one of the most technically / IT minded members of staff and even I find Bentley Architecture incredibly difficult to grasp but in comparison I am finding both Archicad and Revit a delight to use (deeper BIM issues aside). I am absolutely adamant that my less technically minded colleagues would struggle enormously with Bentley Architecture and I must stress that usability is a very important issue I will be considering when I present back to my bosses. It is also clear from the other contributions to this discussion that others share my grievances.

With regards to your suggestion about looking at AECOsim BD I must admit I had never heard of it but I did manage to download the Beta version from your website. To be completely honest apart from a revised menu of Structural and MEP tools (which is quite neat but as architects we will never touch) I have observed no real improvement or addressing of the issues I have documented using BA (for example my compound wall problem still occurs in AECOsim BD). If you say this is what we should be using as a benchmark against other BIM vendors then I would be very worried if I was Bentley as even the help information remains incredibly poor and as do the library parts (sharing John K’s concerns). I am hoping that these issues are only because I am using the early beta of AECOsim BD and the imminent full release you mention will address all these issues and more. To be frank though, at the moment I am in complete agreement with both Damon and Dwy.seah – in other words BA and AECOsim BD are completely stagnant and need to be re-written to compete with the likes of Revit, Archicad, EliteCad etc in order to make them far more intuitive and user friendly. As Dwy.seah says these are actually relatively small usability refinements but the problem is that there is just a lot of them!

Personally I think Bentley need to act very fast as I envisage them losing significant market share in the coming years. This is especially true in the UK market at the moment due to the UK government requirement for BIM level 2 by 2016. At the moment UK architecture firms are frantically starting to jump on the BIM bandwagon and unfortunately from Bentley’s perspective the vast majority of them see Revit as the software of choice and BIM standard. This seems to correlate with reports I have heard (and discussed here) where large architectural firms have chosen Revit and employed Autodesk consultants to assist with the transition. My perception is that Autodesk are doing a very good job marketing Revit and this is supported by the fact that BIM conferences that myself and colleagues have attended recently we have not heard or seen one Bentley representative talking about BA or AECOsim!

In terms of size big firms may be able to afford the luxury of run dual platforms (and wait to see how the market plays out) but for smaller firms (such as the one I work for) this is simply not feasible. I have heard quoted the cost of £15k to introduce BIM per staff member (i.e. software license, training etc) and there is simply no way firms like mine could justify spending £30k per seat. Therefore, the decision of software is actually crucial for us and if Bentley’s are perceived to not respond to the issues raised here then I forecast that they will suffer quite badly in the long run.

So, in some sort of conclusion I understand Bentley’s underlying strategy to BIM and I have a lot of confidence in it. Whilst the single model concept (Archicad & Revit) makes initial sense I can see the pitfalls with this strategy as project models grow in size and complexity and across disciplines. As such I can appreciate just how powerful the federated approach could be in theory but I am utterly frustrated by the unintuitive and clunky interface and tools which hinder this from being a reality. Therefore, what I would wish for is all your BA and AECOsim product managers actually down-tools for a week and download the free trials of Archicad and Revit just to see just how intuitive the interface and toolsets are – for this is what I observe BIM users are coming to expect as a benchmark. In tandem the help sections need to be fundamentally addressed with better content. For instance both Autodesk and Graphisoft have YouTube channels with learning videos and the only Bentley Architecture videos I have been able to find online were produced by a Lawrence Eaton – an employee who left Bentley two years ago!

I seriously hope Bentley will take on board all the concerns I have discussed above because I if Bentley Architecture or AECOsim BD had the same level of accessibility and intuitive toolsets as competing BIM software then I am certain Bentley would be leading the field in every aspect and we would most certainly not even be thinking about switching software provider.

Well said.

"£15k to introduce BIM per staff member"

Holy cow! Isn't that about the next 15 years worth of subscriptions?

If that's accuarate, don't be surprised if management asks you guys to lump it and learn to love those 'quirks' :-)

Although I am familiar with the numerous and various technology differentiators between the various software option, I am a design architect and ultimately make decisions based on final results...the printed drawings.

Microstation has historically been respected for its ability to deliver great looking drawings with less fuss than the competition.  Within the past decade however, Autodesk has matched many of Bentley's graphic control features that appealed to designers (lineweight control, color options, etc.)  Moreover, with the advent of BIM I find that Bentley has lost the high ground in its ability to present building models more-beautifully that the competition.  Printed graphics are "table stakes" before any other so-called feature in my book.  In a side-by-side comparison, we picked Revit.

Prior to Revit, we were a mixed AutoCAD and Microstation shop.  I recall when Autodesk undertook several substantial revamping of their user interface.  This was a very painful process for long-time AutoCAD users to endure, but the result was that the software emerged as being much easier for new users to pickup and use with reasonable skill.  As it is now, the current Bentley UI presents new users with a numer of challenges to easy adoption.  I learned enough Revit to draw my house over a long weekend, but when I tried the same experiment with Bentley's BIM tools the results were dismal.  Not a scientific experiment, for sure, but I was struck by what I learned.

Finally, I think it is important to pay attention to what students are doing and thinking.  Universities are not production offices, but if your firm values innovation and design there is much to be learned from how students are using (or not using) the numerous and variuos tools available to them.  Some portfolio projects today are simply stunning; none that I've seen were produced using Bentley.  Why?

When considering Microstation v. Revit v. whomevever, it is easy to dive into all the technical details, draw up side-by-side comparision charts, and do any number of rediculous productivity analysis exercises.  Don't.  Just try to draw your house over a long weekend...put it on a title block...print it...look at the results...talk about the experience...then build the conversation out from there.  It can be a very illuminating experience, I find.

fully agree, such simple exercise is worth thousands of reviews

p.