What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Marc Thomas — Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:09:25 GMT

Hi Chris,

The difficulty is that the properties of each DataGroup Object instance are stored in the typical floor model, so as things stand the door annotation in each floor plan can't be unique. I take it that the ability to do this is something that you and the others on this thread would like to see as a future enhancement?

In the meantime, how about the following? Give each of the referenced floors a logical name that fits with your project coding, I've just used the obvious name for demo purposes. Then add the Internal Data property Logical to the schedule (shown here in SS5):

You can then schedule the doors by floor (this one is an SS6 screenshot):

Obviously this does not address the annotation on the Drawing but it does allow schedules to be produced with floor identification. The resulting Excel data can be manipulated further as required.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Steve Cocchi — Mon, 09 Mar 2015 18:31:00 GMT

[quote user="dominic SEAH"]

Steve Cocchi

That said, Ss6 will offer a few enhancements in this area (particularly for caching)

Interesting ! When will ss6 be out for EAP?

[/quote]

Soon.... very soon.

--> http://communities.bentley.com/products/building/building_analysis___design/f/343463#pi20290=1

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Tom MacKnight — Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:14:36 GMT

I don't necessary agree with your comment, "I cannot see how it could possibly handle but the simplest of annotation tasks - certainly not producing construction documentation." We use auto-annotation for our CDs. We have even added DG annotation for elements beyond those delivered with the package. Now, you have to touch much of that annotation to clean-up its position for readability, but if the symbol is designed properly, then that is relatively easy. We have found this is not only faster, but can eliminate errors. That said, we don't use auto-annotation for everything. We use what makes sense. But we have gone beyond the delivered auto-annotation content including some custom DG stuff and we are using it to produce CDs.

For multi-story buildings with typical floor plates we use the convention of FFNNN where FF is the floor number and NNN is the room number, so the room number for a typical floor is entered as XX101, etc. In the general notes we indicate that XX should be substituted for the applicable floor number.

If you are doing take-off using this method, you need to multiply the number of typical floor plates by the number of doors, etc. to get the proper take-off. Our work is often design-build, so we are closely tied with the constructors. Therefore we are very cost control conscious. We are constantly doing take-off as control checks as well as in relation to cost control. A lot of folks think you press a button and get a take-off out of a BIM model. We use both Revit and ABD and have to massage the data from each to create a valid take-off. That said, BIM is 100-times faster than in times past when he had to do much of the base take-off by hand. Once a model is validated for the take-off, I can now produce a take-off to hand to the estimators in half-a-day. (Validated meaning, Does the model has the elements we need for the take-off at that state in the project development?)

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

ChrisRev — Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:34:01 GMT

Understand, thanks Mark, I have processed that info now.
My previous views on auto annotating in general remain unchanged though. I cannot see how it could possibly handle but the simplest of annotation tasks - certainly not producing construction documentation.
By way of example, let me share this "little" problem with you.
In multistorey projects in general, a typical situation is that of similar floors being multiple instances of the same reference file. So far so good.
But... IF you want to use auto annotation, the same door repeated on any floor through your referencing will have the SAME annotation - which of course is incorrect since EACH DOOR, even if they are " the same" should have a unique number or text, usually including the floor number but not necessarily. That's basic architectural documentation. Same for windows, curtainwalls etc etc.
mmm so there goes the Xreferencing for the sake of auto annotation? I don't think so.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

dominic SEAH — Sat, 07 Mar 2015 07:07:41 GMT

[quote user="Steve Cocchi"] That said, Ss6 will offer a few enhancements in this area (particularly for caching)[/quote]

Interesting ! When will ss6 be out for EAP?

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Steve Cocchi — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 23:03:28 GMT

Great follow-up responses all around, thanks everyone.

Thomas - hopefully a 64bit pipeline will help, but I can't really say for sure how it will factor in since graphics power and disk speed are also factors. The current MicroStation CONNECT EAP version may offer some insight on how this will fare going forward since that is (or will be) what ABD is built on, just as MicroStation Ss3 is essentially what we use now "under the covers".

Chris - I'm glad that worked! Even if you did have to completely disable the process. :) FWIW, we are trying to make some of the settings and options more discoverable, but there's always a trade-off between flexibility and complexity. That said, Ss6 will offer a few enhancements in this area (particularly for caching) so I'd suggest checking it out when the EAP is available, if nothing else just to see the direction we're heading in for the official release.

Marc - thanks! Great WIKIs and good info for everyone that uses DVs.

Tom - It's great to see how you've taken advantage of the power of DVs + annotation + CVE, while recognizing where the strengths of each lies in order to keep things under control. And in a way that works well for you. I think Ss6 will offer a few goodies in this area of the product that will only help to enhance your workflow and abilities.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Tom MacKnight — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:41:09 GMT

I think I agree with Steve here. The first thing we do when we install ABD is to disable Auto Annotation. I wish this was the default, but I understand that Bentley is wanting new users to see the functionality without having to tweak any knobs. Its not that we don't want to have the annotation generated automatically. And, its not that we are doing it for a speed increase (although that can be a benefit). We do it because we want control over the process.

With most annotation it takes user intervention to move it to a location which makes the drawing readable. Making the drawing readable is something that us monkeys do better than computers and software (at least at the moment). We don't want annotation randomly popping into the drawing. If we add doors or rooms, then one of the steps to the process is to go into the generated plan drawing and force automatic annotation. Then we adjust the location so the annotation positioned where we want it. If we see something odd going on in the placement of annotation, then it is almost always because someone has enabled Auto Annotation and isn't following through with the process because they aren't thinking about the fact that new annotation was generated.

It is similar with cashed views. We use then throughout the drawing set because they give us control. We feel that live data is a bit over-rated. Maybe we're just control freaks, but we feel it reduces errors if you do these sorts of things consciously. We do love the fact that when we make changes we can just say, "Poof," and the drawing annotation or cashed views are updated. We just want to be able to validate the change went according to the planned result.

And, of course, some of this depends on the nature of your work. I've done some smaller, simpler projects where just a few people were involved. Say one architect, one HVAC, one structural, etc. In those case live works quite well. But in more complex projects involving many designers, the control that "manual" updates give us reduces errors and surprises in the drawings. And on larger projects, the speed boost comes into play because a particular master model might have dozens of files referenced to it.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Marc Thomas — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:22:39 GMT

For the background to auto-annotation please see:

Drawing Rules, Auto Annotation and performance

For an example of how to take control of the annotation cells see:

Spaces - DataGroup Annotation Cells - Changing the Length of the Room Number

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

ChrisRev — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 00:13:17 GMT

Yes it did thank you. Sigh of relief. It does leave a fundamental question though . The intricacies of Aecosim in terms of myriads of configuration variables not being always reflected on the interface... and even when they are showing, Auto Annotation enable/disable switch is customized to only show under the BD menu when in a 2d model (at least on my install)...which is sort of righ coz you'd like to be able to disable it before going to a 2D model and waiting forever for a refresh...
(As an aside, this is just one more example of a chronic problem with the interface, which needs to be completely reorganised - right now it is a jumble. I have to some extent re- organised it but between the legacy stuff and new stuff coming out at various updates, it is a constant task which I believe should be minimized by Bentley taking a serious look at it from a user point of view.
Like for example get a team of building professionals with a real building project with real deadlines in-house at Bentley from start to finish and see how they fare...)
Anyway, disabling Auto Annotation wasn't sufficient, so I edited the other variable to disable it completely and that seemed to do the trick - since so far anyway I remain unconvinced that auto annotating can ever do what it's supposed to do, might as well do without.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Thomas Voghera — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 20:51:24 GMT

Steve - that is a very bad solution.

Will 64-bit MicroStation cure this? If not you really have to come up with another solution.

I am surrounded by Revit and Autocad users, and I am ashamed of how slow ABD often can be.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Steve Cocchi — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:18:05 GMT

Have you tried disabling Auto Annotation as mentioned above? That should noticeably reduce the time required.

RE: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

ChrisRev — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:36:10 GMT

I have some files taking 200 seconds to process visibility before I can get a plan display, then same again for printing it! When will Aecosim actually use multicore processors to do the job QUICKLY...Lookin at the task manager, 1 core out of 8 is working when the visibility processor is busy... hopeless.

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Steve Cocchi — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:51:10 GMT

To reduce or eliminate the MicroStation Visibilty Calculator messages, try disabling Building Designer > Auto-Annotations. The visibility calculator message typically occurs due to the automatic scan process that determine whether any geometry changes in the 3D model(s) require annotation changes in the drawing.

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Thomas Voghera — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:21:28 GMT

and where will this end?

We have a program that should produce 2d from 3d.

Then we have to disable things with CVE and annotation to be able to use it.

I suspect this won't be helped much with faster machines?

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Thomas Voghera — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:17:55 GMT

with a dwg? no MicroStation elements at all!

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Marc Thomas — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:14:06 GMT

Dominic is correct. Further information here:

communities.bentley.com/.../7920.aspx

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

dominic SEAH — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 04:53:18 GMT

communities.bentley.com/.../visibility-calculator-performance-issues.aspx

Its probably due to automatic annotation regeneration?

Re: What is going on when MicroStation Visibility Calculator runs?

Thomas Voghera — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 02:24:41 GMT

Sections is almost instant to open. But plans has this extra 20 seconds.

Why?

Really disturbing.