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OpenCities Map: Future development and directions?

Jan Šlegr
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Hi,

I am posting this question as a result of several discussions I had recently with customers. I am aware it's not a representative pattern, because I typically serve smaller companies and individuals, but in my opinion the topic is important generally.

My customers use BM (or more often BMPV because of very good price offer in the past) as drawing tool only, with spatial data support. BM was often used because INSPIRE and other data are important, and even when not well supported in V8i versions (WFS, WMTS, local formats...), it was still better than in plain MicroStation. In V8i, it works quite fine, because it's "like MicroStation", so experience and setting can be shared easily and it allows to access data in ad-hoc style and to create output on top of them.

When talking about "BM as GIS", it's much worse. Right now I have only one customer who use BM as GIS tool, all other left Bentley platform towards to competitive (better supported with more advanced functionality).

All these users are now evaluating a migration to CONNECT Edition. They are usually have mixed environments with MicroStation, PowerDraft or civil products. Sometimes competitive tools like AutoCAD or ArcGIS are also used in parallel. The question is: What is the future and directions of OpenCities Map? Does make it sense to move to CE platform, or to plain MicroStation / PowerDraft, or to some competitive platform?

I must admit, that I have had no clear answer or recommendation for them. And I realized I have no idea what OCM product line should be used for, what are development aim, targeted areas and workflows and competitive strengths. Whereas I see priorities and quite clear directions for products like MicroStation (the platform in general), OpenRoads Designer or GenerativeComponents, because there are active discussions, webinars, SIG sessions etc. available, OCM world looks more like "we gave up".

 It is a bit complicated to talk about GIS today:

  • I agree with an idea that "GIS is dead" ... it has become integrated technology, working often in a hidden way.
  • Also, the most of GIS has moved to web solutions (including editing and analysis), which is area what have been abandoned by Bentley years ago.
  • Existing GIS desktop products (ArcGIS + QGIS as ethalons) offer complex advanced functionality in a range from data capture, processing, analysis, visualization and even some cartography production).
  • GIS is spreading as technology to other disciplines and is incorporated, integrated or inspiring other areas (aggregating data, enrich them with spatial info, analyze them in cloud...).

So, what is OCM expected to be?

  • Desktop GIS product? No.
    • Complicated for users, nothing is "click and use or drag-and-drop".
    • Weird (even powerful) GSA, not flexible.
    • Very limited functionality with a lot not well connected tools.
  • Data capturing tool? Not quite.
    • To limit OpenCities Map PowerView to be spatial database read-only client, in time when spatial databases are core of spatial data world, force users to use other cheaper solutions.
    • When for basic data capturing (or editing) another technology is used, why to use full OCM, which increases operation and maintenance costs?
  • Data processing tool? No.
    • Still fragile weak support of spatial databases.
    • When there is an issue, not enough materials.
    • No migration, data cleaning, data quality etc. tools available.
  • Development platform? No.
    • Comparing to MicroStation CE API, which is consistent and well designed (and pretty well performant), it's ... well, it cannot be used.
    • Geospatial Extranet (the only source of some information) is not functional anymore.
  • Map production tool? No.
    • Map producing tools are limited, basic functionality only (well, Update 5 offer a bit better labeling).
    • Complicated styles / sings definition, limited, fragmented between MicroStation and Map-specific tools.
    • No cartography tools at all.
  • Client side of server solution (ArcGIS Pro + ArcGIS Server, QGIS + PostGIS/PostgeSQL)? No.
    • There is nothing available for main spatial DB (Oracle, SQL Server, PostGIS/PostgreSQL) that optimize the platforms for usage of OCM client.
  • Client side of web publishing solution? No.
    • GeoWebPublisher is history, weak and dysfunctional.
    • PostgreSQL + GeoServer + OpenLayers + ... can be alternative, but again painful to solve e.g. line styles, because no conversion tools or best practices availability.

So, what is unique feature of BM and what is its development priority?

Maybe it's 3D GIS, but it's something very specific, not interesting for 99% of users. Which does not mean it's wrong, because when old users will be lost, new ones can be found. But now, what users tell me, this platform cannot be trusted as stable for such expensive decision like the migration. Even when the migration to competitive platform is typically quite expensive (data conversion, users training etc.), in long term perspective it seems to be cheaper, because: directions are known, the solutions are well supported locally, there are companies available to develop local specific tools and there are best practices how to go for web, which is crucial.

So, end of whining. May I ask for some insight what is the future? When the current surviving mode will change to "we are on edge, these features are breaking news and we are able to offer bigger value than our competitors, including supporting local regulations and specifics"?

With regards,

  Jan

  • 0 Offline in reply to Jan Šlegr

    Hi Jan. From your tone I see that there is nothing I can say that will make things better :-) Still, I will provide some additional information.

    When I pointed to iModelJs I just wanted to show that there is a new iModel platform and technology stack that is web-ready and can help users build digital twins. A web gis application is one type of digital twin application. I believe the iModel platform will have better capabilities than what GeoWebPublisher could do in the past. It already supports BIM data and we are adding geospatial capabilities. The platform will support display of external sources like WMS/WMTS for example. We are also building a geospatial iModel Bridge. We have SHP file support in production now and are adding spatial databases. That means the GIS data can be brought into the iModel. The iModel display on the web is efficient, with streaming and caching of 3d "tiles". The Design Review application might not be well suited to an operations digital twin but the iModelJs api is well defined and well documented. It is possible to build your own application. Bentley will also develop other applications on that platform, we are working on some now. We will communicate externally when they are closer to being ready. 
    You can also look at OpenCities Planner, that supports a bunch of geospatial formats already and does great rendering on the web. You are correct, none of these are direct replacements for GeoWebPublisher. However both of these show that Bentley is still very much in the geospatial and web areas. 

    Apart from product documentation, being a SELECT subscriber gives you access to our support services. They can help you when things aren't clear, and especially around application usage. Bentley also provides consultants, services and success plans to help users choose the right software and architect thew overall solution. 

    I will happily relay your data quality/validation and migration comments to the OpenCities Map product management.

     

  • 0 Offline in reply to Martin Roy
    Martin Roy said:
    From your tone I see that there is nothing I can say that will make things better :-)

    Until my main question is answered, probably not...

    Martin Roy said:
    When I pointed to iModelJs I just wanted to show that there is a new iModel platform and technology stack that is web-ready and can help users build digital twins

    Unfortunately "digital twins" has become overused marketing *** terminology. A week ago I attended a conference (2 days web casting because of current restrictions) and it was substantial part of one great presentation: What digital twins means, what they really are, whether they are just crap or is there real use-case and benefits behind them etc.

    But iTwins and iModelJS are very different topics from my original question, so even it can be valuable to discuss it, it does not solve any from my current pain.

    Martin Roy said:
    I believe the iModel platform will have better capabilities than what GeoWebPublisher could do in the past.

    I do not think and I do not believe. Other capabilities, targeted to other scenarios and users? Yes, no doubts, there is a huge potential. Whereas Map has been promoted as GIS / geospatial solution (but I think it's not anymore and it shifted to another direction and is not competitive GIS), iModelJS with iModelBridges and iModelHub sounds so far better suited for AM/FM (where I think Bentley can provide great technology to pass gap between GIS and BIM).

    Two (simplified) typical scenarios have presented by my customers:There are spatial data, often quite complex both graphically (utilities maps with plenty of hierachical features and many annotations, dimensions etc.) and in their structure (lookup tables, dependent tables, IDs to external system). When these data have to be displayed, they are merge of original data, enhanced by parcels, ortophoto etc.

    • When element is located (clicked), based on data in spatial DB plus queires to external system, information is displayed.
    • When system is queried, map is displayed and feature, buffer, part of topology is highlighted.

    I do not think this is scenario where iModelJS can help anyhow.

    Second scenario is more interesting: Similar to first one, but to be able to access data outdoor (typically off-line). Here iModelJS briefcase sounds interesting, because it's not about live data. Not sure how enhancement / enrichment spatial data by data from external system (what was a role of i-model Transformer in the past) when data are streamed from i-model Hub (?).

    But I can imagine, it will be implemented out of i-model Hub ecosystem, because no transactions are required in this case.

    Martin Roy said:
    but the iModelJs api is well defined and well documented.

    Yes, it's best Bentley project in history. Whereas Bentley has fought against 3rd party developers last several years and the development has become expensive and painful, iModelJS project is what Bentley were long time ago, when they were top class technology company and openly support 3rd party developers to be able to solve local requirements, that never can be addressed by global company (even when now many people in Bentley think that global Bentley solution is the best for everybody, don't accepting a fact every country and discipline is different).

    My feeling is that that one from big problem of Bentley: Providing (sometimes excellent) technology, but trying to sell it as end-user product, optimized for local usage. In the case of iModelJS, there is not such mistake done, the roles, rules and business approach are clearly defined from early beginning.

    Martin Roy said:
    Apart from product documentation, being a SELECT subscriber gives you access to our support services.

    Historically I have not very good experience with Bentley Support for many reasons. And without knowledge of local standards, no good application support can be provided.

    Martin Roy said:
    Bentley also provides consultants, services and success plans to help users choose the right software and architect thew overall solution. 

    Yes, in US rates, English or maybe German speaking people, without knowledge of local terminology, standards and requirements. How it can be applicable in local conditions, where the complete documentation is in (in my case) Czech language and users + managers often do not speak English (completely or very limited). Plus, budge is limited to just a few days every year.

    Regards,

      Jan

    Bentley Accredited Developer: iTwin Platform - Associate
    Labyrinth Technology  |  dev.notes()  |  cad.point

  • 0 Offline

    Hello Jan,

    thank you for your straight questions, unfortunatelly there's no satisfactory answer at all. I thought there's no one else complaining about Bentleys marketing strategy for Bentley Map.

    We're one of the few customers that are using BM as GIS or for GIS data maintenance. Therefore we were using ProjectWise to manage our DesignFiles with the Geospatial Connector for Oracle as query and post-back interface. That was nice since once configured it's an easy way to get data from spatial database into DGN and get it posted back.

    Now we have to migrate to OpenCities Map CE but there is no server-based method to get this task done anymore. Yes, we could use Interoperability Manager inside OpenCities Map but that's a client-based database query that requires more administrative effort (e.g. we need Oracle Clients). In my opinion it's outdated and not really performant on large datasets. Sadly we were wating for the missing CE components for Connector for Oracle and recently Bentley support dropped incidentally that this product will not be developed and supported anymore. And no one may give us any alternative interface (beside Interop Manager which is really demanding for end users).

    So we're forced to make the decision upon OpenCities Map and redesign our workflows or searching alternatives. But what'll be the benefit switching to OpenCities Map?

    Regards,

    Maik

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