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SewerGEMS Invert Levels Design with Diameters Same

Dear Sir,

We have a Sewer Network of more than 5000 Manholes.The Model for it is already built by me in SewerGEMS. All Flows are entered as" Flows Known" for the Manholes. All Conduits are currently selected as "User Defined Conduits". The Current SewerGEMS Model was built via ModelBuilder & the values for Diameters, Flow, Ground Elevations & Inverts were transferred from a Sewer Design Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet & Analyzed in SewerGEMS.

 Now the problem is that there was an error in the Field Survey & therefore all the Ground Elevations have changed. If I enter these Revised Ground Elevations in SewerGEMS. can it Re-Design the Conduit Start Invert, Conduit Stop Invert & the Manhole Inverts (i.e. Manhole Structure Elevation) Keeping The Diameters Same. The Conduit Diameters are to be kept same only the Inverts are to be Re-Designed.

Thanks & Regards,

Vikas Kulkarni.

Parents
  • Vikas,

    Yes, I believe you can you re-design the start invert, stop invert, & manhole inverts, while keeping the diameters the same. Here's what you need to do.

    1) In all you node elements (manholes, catch basins, outfalls, transitions, etc...) set the "design structure elevation?" property to True and enter your desired sump depth. By default this field should already be set to True, so you might just want to double check that it still is.

    2) You might also try this although I'm not sure if it will make a difference. In the properties of your conduit Make sure the "design conduit?" field is set to true and the "design start invert?" and "design stop invert?" fields are also set to true.

    3) Open the conduit catalog (Components > Conduit Catalog) and uncheck the "Available for design?" option for all the conduits. You will get some yellow user notifications about the conduits not being able to be designed because you don't have any selected for design, but if everything works out like I'm hoping then the only thing this will do is prevent the diameter, shape, and material from changing.
     
    Please let us know if that works for you.

    Regards,
    Mark

    Mark

  • Dear Mr. Pachlhofer,

    Thanks For Your Advise / Answer / Suggestion.

    I tried All Sorts of Combinations Including the ones which you have suggested today on a Small 10 Manhole Trial Test Model for Fast Computations. It does not work. I initially created a Small 10 Manhole Test Model with say X, Y, Z, etc. Ground Elevations & Computed the Model. After that I Increased All Ground Elevations by 5m to say values P, Q, R, etc. & then tried all Sorts of Permutations & Combinations. But the Conduit Inverts (Slopes) are not Designed and the Conduits stay where they are i.e. at the same position as Designed Earlier with Very Deep Manholes. Only when we Design Completely i.e. with Catalog Conduits "Available For Design" then Immediately on Compute the Conduits are Shifted Up & there Inverts (Slopes) adjusted but with changed Diameters. I think SewerGEMS Does Not Design Only the Conduit Slopes for Given Pipe Diameters. It Either Designs Completely To Perfection Including Pipe Diameters or Does Not Design it.

    With Best Regards,
    Vikas Kulkarni.
  • I am waiting for more Replies to this. I would also like Mr. Jesse Dringoli to post a Reply.
  • Hello Vikas,

    Mark and I have discussed this and will be replying shortly.


    Regards,

    Jesse Dringoli
    Technical Support Manager, OpenFlows
    Bentley Communities Site Administrator
    Bentley Systems, Inc.

  • Vikas,

    The typical use case, which the program was designed for, is the design of a proposed system where both the sizes and the inverts are designed. Keeping the sizes the same would indicate that you may be redesigning an existing system using the existing conduits but possibly burying them at a different depth. This is a bit of an atypical case, hence the need for a workaround. We certainly appreciate the feedback though and will record this for our product managers to consider for future versions.

    Here's what you can do to workaround this issue:

    1) Open your conduit flextable and add the label column along with the diameter column and place them next to each other.

    2) Sort your conduit table by ascending labels by right clicking on the label column header and choosing Sort > Sort Ascending.

    4) Highlight all the records for the label and diameter columns and hit the CTRL + C to copy them

    5) Open a new Excel spreadsheet and paste the information in.

    6) In the conduit flextable add the conduit type, conduit class, and size fields if they're not already available.

    7) Global edit the conduit type from "User Defined" to "Catalog Conduit". You do this by right clicking on the conduit type column header and choosing global edit.

    8) Open the conduit catalog (Components > Conduit Catalog) and add in some conduit shapes and make a few sizes available for design by checking the box labeled "Available for design?". If you want you can just import some from the engineering library by clicking on the drop down arrow next to the book icon and choosing import from library.

    9) In the conduit flextable right click on the conduit class field and choose to global edit it. Choose one of the shapes. Now right click on the size field to global edit that then choose one size for all the conduits.

    10) Run the software in design mode to update all your inverts.

    11) Open your conduit flextable and global edit the conduit type field to "user defined". Make sure all your conduits are still sorted by label in ascending order.

    12) Copy the diameter information from the Excel spreadsheet and paste it back to the diameter field in the flextable.

    That should do the trick.

    Regards,
    Mark

    Mark

    Answer Verified By: Sushma Choure 

  • For your records this enhancment has been logged as enhancement 239178.

    Mark

Reply Children
  • Dear Mr. Mark Pachlhofer,

    Thanks for your Reply - Going through the Process suggested by you - Will give feedback soon.

    With Best Regards,
    Vikas Kulkarni.
  • Dear Mr. Mark Pachlhofer,

    In this case if the Diameters of Conduits Selected by SewerGEMS during Design is different from the Original Conduit Diameters it will have a Significant Impact on the Hydraulics of the Network System. This is because SewerGEMS will Design the Inverts (Slopes of the Conduits) based upon the Diameters it has Selected from the Conduit Catalog & Not on the Basis of the Original Conduit Diameters in the Model.

    But Yes, as suggested by you we can Re-Design but keeping Only & Exactly the Same Type of Conduits (Diameter, Material, etc.) As In The Original Model in the Conduit Catalog. And if there are No Changes in Diameters Selected during Re-Design then Well & Good. But if there are Minor changes in Diameters Selected during Re-Design, then we can insert the Original Conduit Diameters using Flex Tables and Analyze the Model (Using Analysis Calculation Option) with the New Inverts Designed by SewerGEMS for its Selected Diameters and try and Optimize the Design. If the Hydraulic & Other Practical Parameters Work Out Good, then it is fine.

    Is it possible to know the Approximate Date by which can we expect enhancement 239178 - For Designing Conduit Inverts Only i.e. Slopes with User Defined Conduit Diameters not changing during Design to be available? - I mean within a few months or maybe next year?

    With Thanks & Best Regards,
    Vikas Kulkarni.
  • Vikas,

    Yes, we understand what you are stating about the diameters, but currently this workaround is the best way to solve your query.

    If the feature is added, it would most likely be around May or June of next year at the earliest that you could expect to see it in the storm and sewer products.

    Regards,
    Mark

    Mark

  • Vikas,

    Would you mind explaining a little more about why you're keeping the current pipe sizes and just designing in the inverts? This would help us to better understand what problem you are facing and it might help with the development of this enhancement as well as future developmental enhancements.

    Mark

    Mark

  • Dear Mr. Mark Pachlhofer,

    This Sewer Network was First Originally Created / Developed / Designed in Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet Program by another Firm / Company. This Firm does not have Bentley SewerGEMS Software. They wanted to Convert it To SewerGEMS for “Analysis”. This work was accepted by the Company for which I am working. They wanted the same Diameters which there Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet Program has Designed & wanted it to be converted to A SewerGEMS Model – Just For “Analysis”. Therefore the SewerGEMS Model was built via ModelBuilder & the values for Diameters, Flows, Ground Elevations & Inverts were transferred from a Sewer Design Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet & Analyzed in SewerGEMS.
    The Analysis was Good – All Hydraulic Parameters were Good.
    Now the Work of Construction Began at the Site.
    The Material was Ordered at the Site – How much i.e. Till what Stage I do not know.
    During this Construction Stage it was noticed that there is an Error in the Ground Level Elevations. This happened because the Survey Work was carried out by 3 Different Agencies. The GL’s have Increased by an Average Value of 0.06m if All Conduits are taken into account (@ 5000 Conduits) and an Average of 0.28m if we only consider the Conduits with a G.L. Difference of > 0.1m between Original & Revised G.L.s.
    Now this firm wanted to Re-Analyze for Hydraulic Parameters & Re-Design to know the Revised New Inverts keeping the Diameters Same because some material has been ordered at the Construction Site. Also SewerGEMS may Re-Design with a Different Combination of Conduit Diameters Which They Do Not Want. There Preference is to keep the Diameters Same as in there Original MS Excel Designed Spreadsheet Model.
    The Process of Re-Designing A Sewer Network Model in Microsoft Excel is Tedious, since the Level of Automation (Automatic Computations) is less in the Program which they have in Excel Software as Compared to Bentley SewerGEMS which according to me is A Superb, Fast, Very User Friendly, Has Great Tools for Fast Model Building (Expecially ModelBuilder, Trex, Network Navigator, Flex Tables, LoadBuilder, User Data Extensions, Thiessen Polygon & Many More), It’s the Best in its Class & as I have already said before Designs To Ultimate Perfection as far as possible within the Specified Design Constraints. I just Love All Bentley Softwares.
    Therefore in Accordance With The Requirement of this Firm we are trying to Re-Analyze & Re-Design the Sewer Network Model in Bentley SewerGEMS keeping the Diameters Same.

    Best Regards,
    Vikas Kulkarni.