StormCAD vs Inroads/Geopak for Roadway Drainage Design

Brent said:

StormCAD will be the default drainage design software integrated in Openroads. Is this correct?

Yes, OpenRoads Designer uses StormCAD's GVF-Rational numerical solver and related hydraulic modeling capabilities, by default. Up to 100 inlets can be modeled, above which you would need to activate a StormCAD license with a higher number of inlets. You also have the option of using the more advanced dynamic Implicit or Explicit (SWMM) solvers if you have a SewerGEMS or CivilStorm license. See more in the following article from our Wiki: Understanding OpenFlows Hydraulics and Hydrology Functionality in Subsurface Utilities / OpenRoads

Brent said:

no ditch inlets in StormCAD?

Ditch inlets are certainly available in StormCAD. When clicking the New button in the Inlet Catalog, you can select from all the standard HEC-22 inlet sizes. 

Furthermore, you have the ability to model any inlet via the inflow-capture curves. See: Modeling Custom Inlets Using Inlet Capture Curves

Brent said:

better profile displays in CAD

StormCAD offers two types of profiles, "standard" profiles which are easy to create and helpful for quick checks. The "Engineering" style profiles are highly customizable, including annotations (from any parameter), annotation tables, tap connection points (when using the tap and lateral elements), the ability to display ground surface from an attached terrain model and more.

Further, you have the ability to use the OpenRoads profiles (please see the OpenRoads Designer help, wiki and forum for more on that).

Brent said:

inlet/manhole cells

2D cell representations of the node elements can be customized. OpenRoads designer has the ability to set up "feature definitions" with custom 3D representation of the structures and pipes.

Brent said:

more intuitive report options

What options are you looking for? StormCAD's Flextables are fully customizable - you can choose any column you want, you can set up combined pipe/node tables, you can set up custom XML templates, you can export to CSV/Shapefile. The Custom Reports option brings even more customization. Lastly, OpenRoads Design capabilities are available for plans production.

Brent said:

better pipe/structure visualization

OpenRoads Designer has the ability to model 3D representation of the structures (with the associated StormCAD hydraulic design/analysis/results)

Brent said:

ability to select microstation elements for drainage areas

You can import them in bulk using ModelBuilder to create catchments.

Brent said:

is there a reason that Bentley is deciding to not utilize inroads/geopak drainage which integrate very well with Microstation?

As you may know, Inroads and GEOPAK have been replaced with OpenRoads Designer. The tools and hydraulic calculations in StormCAD are also more robust and feature-rich, and are already being actively developed for the StormCAD (and CivilStorm/SewerGEMS) product. OpenRoads Designer is then able to pick up on enhancements and updates to StormCAD in new versions.

We want you to be successful with the use of our products, so if there is something specific you feel is missing from the StormCAD/SewerGEMS capability stack, please let us know so that we can provide direction on how to accomplish it, or consider it for future development.

Jesse,

Thank you very much for the detailed response. I will look into your suggestions and see what can reasonably be applied to my current project. Unfortunately, we/our client is not using ORD so I am working in StormCAD, which does not have several of the features you mention.

Jesse Dringoli said:

Ditch inlets are certainly available in StormCAD.

I need to experiment more with this, but it still appears that I need to select a gutter type and input a roadway cross slope in addition to a gutter cross slope when actually setting the inlet and inputting data for it in the properties menu. I was having issues with this and felt like I was having to "trick" the software into thinking it was in a roadway.

Jesse Dringoli said:

What options are you looking for?

My primary complaint is with the vast amount of options available. There are +/- 20 different flow options for example when trying to create inlet tables and it took a lot of trial and error to find the desired ones. Same for area. I just do not remember having these issues when I was learning Inroads or Geopak Drainage. The customization does seem to be improved, however.

Jesse Dringoli said:

inlet/manhole cells

Unfortunately I believe this is an option only in ORD. I am unable to use this in StormCAD with SS-4 without significant workarounds. I miss the option of being able to change a 10' curb inlet into a 15' inlet, or perhaps turn into a combination inlet on the fly and have the structure data AND cell change dynamically. I also miss the option of selecting which inlet i am placing, verses setting an inlet and having to then change it afterward.

Jesse Dringoli said:

The "Engineering" style profiles are highly customizable

The label options do appear to be more intuitive. Does ORD have the option of creating a profile with DGN elements that can be updated quickly without the need for deleting the old profile, generating the new one, exporting to CAD feature, and placing where it can be referenced in a sheet? 

Jesse Dringoli said:

OpenRoads Designer has the ability to model 3D representation of the structures

We produce plans for our client and contractors in 2D. Is there a way to easily visualize the pipe walls? Or only the centerline? I am aware the the color/linestyle can be customized per size, but we print our plans in black/white and pipe walls are critical here. Again, I am using StormCAD in SS-4.

Jesse Dringoli said:

You can import them in bulk using ModelBuilder to create catchments.

This is a significant step back from Geopak/Inroads where I could simply click on the crosshair button and then select the microstation element. It would still maintain the C-value and Outfall structure. If I need to make a quick change to an area, and it is curved, I do not want to create a working DGN file, delete out all other elements, copy in the desired elements, import the DGN into modelbuilder, and then add it to the system and reassign it to the inlet and update the C value, again. If I have a DGN file with all of my onsite areas, how will I be able to differentiate the desired shape from the list imported into modelbuilder? I would have to copy only the shapes being modified into a working file to avoid importing duplicates? Please consider adding better functionality for this. You guys got it right 10 years ago. Honestly, this is my biggest gripe.

Brent said:

I need to experiment more with this, but it still appears that I need to select a gutter type and input a roadway cross slope in addition to a gutter cross slope when actually setting the inlet and inputting data for it in the properties menu. I was having issues with this and felt like I was having to "trick" the software into thinking it was in a roadway.

For surface capture calculations, you would indeed still need to have a gutter to route any bypass flow if the ditch inlet is on grade. You will also need to enter the gutter cross section at the inlet location, where the depth and spread are reported. If your ditch inlet is in a ditch, you can choose the trapezoidal Gutter Shape and enter the left and right side slopes along with the bottom width and the software will report the top width of flow and depth in the ditch. In the gutter link element, you can choose "same as stop node" or "same as start node" to pick up the cross section from the adjacent inlet (if the gutter shape between the inlets is the same as the shape at the inlet location). If this doesn't help, please elaborate on what you are trying to do and what you are observing.

Brent said:

There are +/- 20 different flow options for example when trying to create inlet tables and it took a lot of trial and error to find the desired ones. Same for area.

Yes, the output is quite extensive. We have a fair bit of material in the in-program help as well as our Wiki here in the OpenFlows community. If you can't find the clarity you need there, please feel free to post here on the forum. 

Also, you can use Property Grid Customization (View > Properties > Property Grid Customizations) to filter down the list of properties shown. You can also customize the flextables to show only the fields you want. I am guessing the concern is with figuring out the right fields in the first place, but again, we are here to help if needed.

Brent said:

I miss the option of being able to change a 10' curb inlet into a 15' inlet, or perhaps turn into a combination inlet on the fly and have the structure data AND cell change dynamically.

Yes, what you are looking for is in OpenRoads Designer, the replacement for Inroads and GEOPAK.

Brent said:

The label options do appear to be more intuitive. Does ORD have the option of creating a profile with DGN elements that can be updated quickly without the need for deleting the old profile, generating the new one, exporting to CAD feature, and placing where it can be referenced in a sheet? 

I believe so but would need to check with my colleagues in the ORD team. Alternatively you could check the OpenRoads Designer community and YouTube channel.

Brent said:

We produce plans for our client and contractors in 2D. Is there a way to easily visualize the pipe walls? Or only the centerline? I am aware the the color/linestyle can be customized per size, but we print our plans in black/white and pipe walls are critical here. Again, I am using StormCAD in SS-4.

For the plan view, you can use Element Symbology to not only color code pipes, but also size-code. See: How can I change the lineweight/thickness of pipes or conduits? Producing to-scale pipe sizes in plan view would require trial and error with this method, so this may be again an opportunity to leverage the physical-model visualization capabilities of OpenRoads Designer.

Brent said:

This is a significant step back from Geopak/Inroads where I could simply click on the crosshair button and then select the microstation element. It would still maintain the C-value and Outfall structure. If I need to make a quick change to an area, and it is curved, I do not want to create a working DGN file, delete out all other elements, copy in the desired elements, import the DGN into modelbuilder, and then add it to the system and reassign it to the inlet and update the C value, again. If I have a DGN file with all of my onsite areas, how will I be able to differentiate the desired shape from the list imported into modelbuilder? I would have to copy only the shapes being modified into a working file to avoid importing duplicates? Please consider adding better functionality for this. You guys got it right 10 years ago. Honestly, this is my biggest gripe.

You could keep the area polygons in a separate DGN and import those into the project in question so that you only have one "copy" of the polygons showing. If you have a need to make a quick change to an area, you could then use MicroStation tools to edit the polygons representing the catchments (no need to delete/reimport).

That said, I am going to ask my colleague from the OpenRoads Designer team to comment further on this one.

I know you're using StormCAD standalone at the moment, but FYI in ORD you can simply pick a MicroStation element to use as a catchment area.