Where is the Command Window in Microstation Connect?

I have been using Microstation since last 24 years. We have been using  command prompt to type commands throughout all version of Microstation.
As this option is removed for Microstation Connect version we have to type command in Key-in  window. The problem with this option is that it doesn't retain the cursor as you hit enter key after typing some command. One has to click every time in the Key-in window for tying any command.

Is there any solution for this. Else please retain the original command window.

Hi Bharat,

Bharat Shetkar said:

As this option is removed for Microstation Connect version

I am not sure whether my memory is correct, but Command window was replaced by Key-in dialog (and the window was marked as obsolete and to be released in future) in MicroStation V8 ... 17 years ago. Even when I agree new features should not be used just because they are new, it was long enough time to adapt used workflows to this change.

Bharat Shetkar said:

The problem with this option is that it doesn't retain the cursor as you hit enter key after typing some command.

Yes, it's default behaviour, because keyboard focus is needed somewhere else when a tool is activated: to start another tool using mapping or shortcut, to control Tool Settings dialog or to control AccuDraw. To keep the focus inside one dialog only would decrease "control ability" rapidly.

Bharat Shetkar said:

One has to click every time in the Key-in window for tying any command.

Why? A concept of "Home position" (home focus) was introduced long time ago (was it in V8i?) and it ensures that from "home" (ESC key) different dialogs can be navigated to without mouse clicking. In this case it's "Enter", so ESC > Enter > focus is in the dialog. Whereas there have been plenty of discussions about keyboard mapping vs. new keyboard shortcuts and in V8i time about the mapping itself, the workflow to press Enter to move focus to Key-in dialog is the same for years and as far as I remember from different trainings, usually accepted by users as good feature.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Is there any solution for this.

Yes, the solution is to adapt how MicroStation has worked from (at least) V8i version (> 10 years). Navigate to different dialogs from the home position is the key feature how MicroStation is controled from keyboard.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Else please retain the original command window.

You can post your wish to Ideas section.

Regards,

  Jan

Hi Jan,

Thanks for your reply, I do agree with adopting new changes in software. Every time when new version will be released, look of tool bar will be changed, their grouping will be changed etc. Should we train the user every time to find tools? Our team is using V8i from last 2 years.

Now we have spent almost a month to train them "Microstation Connect". How worth is it to repeat the story in future?

What I think if we are good enough to work using commands then no matter how the software changes it's environment, user will have less difficulty in adopting changes. We can save lot of training hours and improve efficiency.

So I strongly recommend to be a command base user and request to bring back the "Command Prompt".

Remember "Command Prompt" in V8i have been attached with "Menu bar". Lots of things you can do using short cuts in "Menu Bar"

e.g. In V8i You can load reference manager by pressing (Alt + F,  F) .........like so on 

Bharat Shetkar said:

Every time when new version will be released, look of tool bar will be changed, their grouping will be changed etc. Should we train the user every time to find tools?

Your users should not need retrained for a simple GUI change. The issue with switching to Connect is the incredible amount of defects and bugs. Just the text routines alone I can list 6 things it does incorrectly. They're subtle, but when you first encounter they will confuse.

Much like you can't fix stupid, you can't train for defective, sloppy software. You can adopt certain habits, engage some work arounds, which is what I have done. But my situation is much easier, it's just me.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Every time when new version will be released, look of tool bar will be changed, their grouping will be changed etc.

MicroStation has changed in very long cycles ... last big change was V8 XM Edition (release 13 year ago, V8i release 10 years ago is an evolution), and in fact CONNECT Edition is the second really big and painful change in MicroStation history, because of very different GUI. So "a change in every version" is simply not true.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Now we have spent almost a month to train them "Microstation Connect". How worth is it to repeat the story in future?

For some people the migration to CONNECT GUI is very painful (very often because of mental block, not real issues), for others it's smooth. But it seems the history will repeat: GUI has changed very little from V8 XM to the last V8i release, and in my opinion it will be similar with CONNECT: probably every release will bring some minor change, but the concept will remain the same. And as Bob Rayner wrote, there is no need to re-train users for every version with minor changes (and I also agree with Bob that GUI is not the biggest issue in CE, but extremely low SW quality and huge amount of bugs).

Bharat Shetkar said:

What I think if we are good enough to work using commands then no matter how the software changes it's environment, user will have less difficulty in adopting changes. We can save lot of training hours and improve efficiency.

Key-ins have been a core tool for the whole MicroStation history and it has not changed in new versions. I think no one will dispute key-ins are very efficient and because they are integral part of MicroStation operation and GUI, I think there is no reason to expect they will be removed or changed in future.

Bharat Shetkar said:

So I strongly recommend to be a command base user and request to bring back the "Command Prompt".

In my opinion you are mixing two very different topics into one, so I strongly disagree with your sentence.

Whether to use key-ins or GUI is very personal and subjective decision and it cannot be simply told what is better. Plus, you have to take in account also to use Function keys, shortcuts, screen menus etc., when you want to make such conclusions. Well designed GUI will be faster than unexperienced user trying to use key-ins. Vice versa, when some level of customization or automation is required, key-ins are clear winner.

But there is no relation betwen whether I will use whatever type of input and old Command Prompt (Command dialog) that is MicroStation 4 GUI object. It's possible to enter key-ins to Key-in dialog (which is more powerfull and user friendly than old Command dialog) and to use them in custom tools, function keys, keyboard shortcuts etc. Do not see any reason, when I choose to use MicroStation key-ins (which I do daily), to request Command Prompt.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Remember "Command Prompt" in V8i have been attached with "Menu bar".

You moved your argumentation from Command Windows to Command Prompt and I am not sure whether you mean the same thing or not.

I do not remember fully, but Command Windows was MicroStation V4 GUI object, at least in MicroStation 95 (nearly 25 years ago!) it was split to Status bar (nearly the same in all versions so far) and Key-in dialog, that can be displayed and docked by users who prefer to use it (and automatic focus using Enter works great here) or hidden when anybody prefer to use mouse only.

It's true it was possible to use MS_USECOMMANDWINDOW variable and to recover get Command Windows back to GUI, but when for 25 years Bentley have told that it's obsolete and something different is primary way of input and control, it's late to argue and complain it was removed finally, isn't it?

Bharat Shetkar said:

Remember "Command Prompt" in V8i have been attached with "Menu bar". Lots of things you can do using short cuts in "Menu Bar"

e.g. In V8i You can load reference manager by pressing (Alt + F,  F) .........like so on 

Again, you are jumping from topic to topic with different arguments ... not good for the discussion. How keyboard shortcuts changed in CE comparing to V8i is serious issue, but is not connected to Command Windows availability at all (and also not with key-ins) and should be discussed separately.

It's general pain of moving from menu to ribbon and all applications that did it (many such exist including CAD and GIS tools), unfrotuantely Bentley did nothing to make this transition simpler and less painful for users.

I agree that e.g. mentioned Alt+F > F does not work now and existing F2 > H > RR > 1 (or alternative Alt+H > RR > 1) are longer and requires more keystrokes. The only way how to make it simple is to use F keys (plenty of free positions there) or MicroStation keyboard shortcuts (many letters asigned by default, but can be replaced or nested assignments can be defined).

With regards,

  Jan

Bharat Shetkar said:

Every time when new version will be released, look of tool bar will be changed, their grouping will be changed etc.

MicroStation has changed in very long cycles ... last big change was V8 XM Edition (release 13 year ago, V8i release 10 years ago is an evolution), and in fact CONNECT Edition is the second really big and painful change in MicroStation history, because of very different GUI. So "a change in every version" is simply not true.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Now we have spent almost a month to train them "Microstation Connect". How worth is it to repeat the story in future?

For some people the migration to CONNECT GUI is very painful (very often because of mental block, not real issues), for others it's smooth. But it seems the history will repeat: GUI has changed very little from V8 XM to the last V8i release, and in my opinion it will be similar with CONNECT: probably every release will bring some minor change, but the concept will remain the same. And as Bob Rayner wrote, there is no need to re-train users for every version with minor changes (and I also agree with Bob that GUI is not the biggest issue in CE, but extremely low SW quality and huge amount of bugs).

Bharat Shetkar said:

What I think if we are good enough to work using commands then no matter how the software changes it's environment, user will have less difficulty in adopting changes. We can save lot of training hours and improve efficiency.

Key-ins have been a core tool for the whole MicroStation history and it has not changed in new versions. I think no one will dispute key-ins are very efficient and because they are integral part of MicroStation operation and GUI, I think there is no reason to expect they will be removed or changed in future.

Bharat Shetkar said:

So I strongly recommend to be a command base user and request to bring back the "Command Prompt".

In my opinion you are mixing two very different topics into one, so I strongly disagree with your sentence.

Whether to use key-ins or GUI is very personal and subjective decision and it cannot be simply told what is better. Plus, you have to take in account also to use Function keys, shortcuts, screen menus etc., when you want to make such conclusions. Well designed GUI will be faster than unexperienced user trying to use key-ins. Vice versa, when some level of customization or automation is required, key-ins are clear winner.

But there is no relation betwen whether I will use whatever type of input and old Command Prompt (Command dialog) that is MicroStation 4 GUI object. It's possible to enter key-ins to Key-in dialog (which is more powerfull and user friendly than old Command dialog) and to use them in custom tools, function keys, keyboard shortcuts etc. Do not see any reason, when I choose to use MicroStation key-ins (which I do daily), to request Command Prompt.

Bharat Shetkar said:

Remember "Command Prompt" in V8i have been attached with "Menu bar".

You moved your argumentation from Command Windows to Command Prompt and I am not sure whether you mean the same thing or not.

I do not remember fully, but Command Windows was MicroStation V4 GUI object, at least in MicroStation 95 (nearly 25 years ago!) it was split to Status bar (nearly the same in all versions so far) and Key-in dialog, that can be displayed and docked by users who prefer to use it (and automatic focus using Enter works great here) or hidden when anybody prefer to use mouse only.

It's true it was possible to use MS_USECOMMANDWINDOW variable and to recover get Command Windows back to GUI, but when for 25 years Bentley have told that it's obsolete and something different is primary way of input and control, it's late to argue and complain it was removed finally, isn't it?

Bharat Shetkar said:

Remember "Command Prompt" in V8i have been attached with "Menu bar". Lots of things you can do using short cuts in "Menu Bar"

e.g. In V8i You can load reference manager by pressing (Alt + F,  F) .........like so on 

Again, you are jumping from topic to topic with different arguments ... not good for the discussion. How keyboard shortcuts changed in CE comparing to V8i is serious issue, but is not connected to Command Windows availability at all (and also not with key-ins) and should be discussed separately.

It's general pain of moving from menu to ribbon and all applications that did it (many such exist including CAD and GIS tools), unfrotuantely Bentley did nothing to make this transition simpler and less painful for users.

I agree that e.g. mentioned Alt+F > F does not work now and existing F2 > H > RR > 1 (or alternative Alt+H > RR > 1) are longer and requires more keystrokes. The only way how to make it simple is to use F keys (plenty of free positions there) or MicroStation keyboard shortcuts (many letters asigned by default, but can be replaced or nested assignments can be defined).

With regards,

  Jan