Mstn CE Update 11--Visual disturbance

Hi,

I was doing an "extend line" command in a 2D file when this suddenly appeared.  What would cause it, and how do I debug it?

It corrected itself when I did a refresh view.  The black dots appeared as I moved my mouse.  I'm using an AMD FirePro W5000 video card with the 2018.Q4 drivers.

--Thanks,
--Robert Arnold

Parents
  • Hi,

    I have Service Ticket 7000863379 in progress.  The first words out of my mouth were "What I do not want: The usual run-around about updating my video card drivers or down-grading my video drivers. I was using NVidia video cards in my new computer builds, but there were so many driver issues that I could not ever upgrade a driver without fears of breaking Microstation. I am now using AMD video cards.  If Microstation is so fragile that you can not rely on the latest drivers from the most common video card manufacturers, then Bentley needs to find a better technology to build their products on."

    So the current response after multiple emails back and forth is... "Try upgrading to the latest driver for your hardware..." and then, "As the QV_DISABLE_HARDWARE removes the issues with wrong display of geometry, then it is the graphic hardware or drivers which causes the issue you are seem. If it was within MicroStation itself, disabling the hardware wouldn't change anything. Bentley Systems don't deliver hardware drivers. This is done be the hardware manufacturers."

    Per https://communities.bentley.com/products/microstation/w/microstation__wiki/24799/microstation-connect-edition-system-requirements and per https://communities.bentley.com/products/microstation/w/microstation__wiki/4175/microstation-v8i-system-requirements-and-hardware-recommendations-tn Microstation is stated to work with the AMD cards that I am using. 

    Do I need to repeat myself to Bentley?  "If Microstation is so fragile that you can not rely on the latest drivers from the most common video card manufacturers, then Bentley needs to find a better technology to build their products on."  I am using approved hardware.  I am following instructions (specifically to this SR and general video card instructions on the Bentley website) to update my video card drivers.  Bentley need to fix their software, or to work with AMD to fix the driver. 

    P.S. I am trying to be polite and not state my feelings about this issue. 

    --Thanks,
    --Robert

  • "If Microstation is so fragile that you can not rely on the latest drivers from the most common video card manufacturers, then

    Rare instances, but you can't rely on the latest driver, any software.

    Connect r17 10.17.2.61 self-employed-Unpaid Beta tester for Bentley

  • Yes, but at the same time Bentley recommends that you update your driver on a periodic basis, and the first thing out of a support tech's mouth is, "Have you updated your driver to the latest version?"

    --Robert

  • Yes, that's good standard practice, but I'm telling you my last computer video driver would cause some issue, no warning, no documentation. Tried various updates, always had to go back to version X. Bentley can barely do support for their own products, not a lot of help with the myriad hardware configurations out there.

    Connect r17 10.17.2.61 self-employed-Unpaid Beta tester for Bentley

  • not a lot of help with the myriad hardware configurations out there.

    That's the problem exactly. Despite of there are two main graphic cards vendors in fact, both AMD and NVidia produce both gaming and professional cards with (unfortunately) separately developed drivers. Moreover, MicroStation usage DirectX makes the situation more complicated, because professional drivers are often better optimized and tested intensively for OpenGL, but probably not with DirectX.

    My personal opinion is that gaming AMD cards have no problems with MicroStation, whereas AMD professional the most. Nvidia is somewhere between, but unfortunately both for gaming and professional cards. So it's hard to choose when a user need to use both MicroStation (DirectX) and some other OpenGL optimized CAD or software requiring GPU computing.

    With regards,

      Jan

  • Jan,

    Thank you.  You have hit one of my BIG points right on the head.  When Microstation was based on OpenGL, I did not have any graphical issues.  I can not remember any at all.  As soon as they switched to Microsoft's DirectX, I started getting some ghosting.  That got a lot better, but there are still occasions where the graphics are not as clean as on OpenGL.

    If Bentley can not have a reliable product with the recommended "updated" GPU drivers using DirectX, then they need to do something about that.  Either make their software work with the drivers, work with the driver manufacturers to make the drivers work with Bentley products, OR USE SOMETHING THAT IS MORE STABLE like OpenGL.

    The bottom line is that we have paid Bentley for a reliable product.  If their product breaks due to the normal operations of other vendors, then it is not a reliable product.  Bentley needs to change their methods to be more reliable.

    --Thanks,
    --Robert

Reply
  • Jan,

    Thank you.  You have hit one of my BIG points right on the head.  When Microstation was based on OpenGL, I did not have any graphical issues.  I can not remember any at all.  As soon as they switched to Microsoft's DirectX, I started getting some ghosting.  That got a lot better, but there are still occasions where the graphics are not as clean as on OpenGL.

    If Bentley can not have a reliable product with the recommended "updated" GPU drivers using DirectX, then they need to do something about that.  Either make their software work with the drivers, work with the driver manufacturers to make the drivers work with Bentley products, OR USE SOMETHING THAT IS MORE STABLE like OpenGL.

    The bottom line is that we have paid Bentley for a reliable product.  If their product breaks due to the normal operations of other vendors, then it is not a reliable product.  Bentley needs to change their methods to be more reliable.

    --Thanks,
    --Robert

Children
  • As soon as they switched to Microsoft's DirectX, I started getting some ghosting. 

    It sounds weird to me, because I have never experienced any problem with DirectX (which is used from XM). The only exception has been well known problem with some Nvidia drivers. But it's true that I probably do not use MicroStation in a same way as experienced 3D users.

    hen they need to do something about that

    Unfortunately reality is completely different and such idea cannot be realized. DirectX API is specified as any other API, but the problem is how it's implemented in drivers. And there were several issues documented where graphic chip produces lied about DirectX feature implementation just because of hoping for better sales.

    Moreover, I remember an interview with AMD development manager and he explained that in some drivers versions e.g. 80% of changes were only to fix bugs in AAA games (because they are so poorly implemented)... it's silly to imagine that in drivers there are tests "when <this game> is running, replace their code by ours" :-(

    OR USE SOMETHING THAT IS MORE STABLE like OpenGL.

    API itself is stable, but my feeling is that the problem is on both sides: There have been too many versions of DirectX (specifically Direct3D, because DirectX consists from more APIs / modules), but at the same time drivers authors do not care too much about drivers quality, because "they are just games".

    Bentley needs to change their methods to be more reliable.

    As developer I have to say it's never simple to make a decision. I vote to support DirectX 12 (which was reworked heavily, is better structured and provides better performance) and forget anything older. But tin such case thousands of cards will become unusable. What is the best decision in such case?

    Similar question is whether to use DirectX or OpenGL ... which often ends with similar time wasting and useless discussions like whether to use C# or Java ;-) OpenGL optimized cards are usually pretty expensive, but provides perfect output and performance. DirectX "gaming" cards are cheap and when Direct3D implementation is done well, they provide also very good performance.

    With regards,

      Jan