I'm very glad to see that you have made Task Navigation (TN) easier to bring up. Having refined my hot-key use for the better part of a decade the thought of having to solely use the ribbon bar for all my commands gave me a nervous twitch. Hence setting MS_TASKNAVIGATION_CONFIGURATION = 1 then following the 3/4 other steps to activate it was the very first thing I looked up and ran when I installed CE. It was terrific. I was able to start playing around with the ribbon bar while still being efficiently by using TN. Happy days.
However, it now appears that you have made Task Navigation its own setting along with drawing, modelling etc. ie I can either have TN, or the ribbon, but not both. Have I overlooked something in its installation? I'm not sure why you changed it in this way but can you please let us use both at the same time? Having both is easily the best option for me because I still have my hot-keys the but the ribbon bar is much better than the V8i drop-down 'File - Edit - etc.' menus.
Thanks
ilija
So, the good news: I believe I have found a way which could keep us all happy :) My overarching issue is not against the ribbon bar as such but against the inability to be efficient with the hotkeys. The V8i taskbar had Main or manipulation tools being accessed with numbers, and QWERTY/letters being used for creating new items. The ribbon allows for QWERTY shortcuts to be maintained and even improved since ASQWERT brings up each of the current ribbon items while ALT+hotkey cycles through the tabs. (See below) which is good.
I had a bit of an issue because once you brought up these menus the hotkeys didn't follow the QWERTY process: I have those keys bound to a programmable keypad (Razer Nostromo) so if I needed to press 'P' I would have to reach across to the keyboard like some sort of savage. However I appreciate that the overwhelming majority of users wouldn't have this issue (I have never see anyone else use one) and it is a step towards the intuitive Autocad way of doing it which I have heard some people raise as an issue in the past so I'm happy to change my way of doing things to accommodate.
Another factor is that the ribbon bar is slower than V8i but that has been raised many times and I'm hoping that you are working on resolving it.
What is lacking, however, is the numbers being used for the Main/manipulation commands. 3,2-Move 2,1-Fence, 5-1, change element attributes etc. These are fundamental across all workflows so unless you can show me a better/more efficient use for accessing these commands then my request is that you reinstate this part of the process. Does this sound like a reasonable compromise?
To me it's not a compromise at all. With today's widescreen monitors it's a cardinal sin to waste screen space with a ribbon bar at the top of the screen. I'd rather work in a sort of 4:3 drawing window than in a 16:8 one if you get what I mean.
Forcing us to use sluggish tools with no real alternative sooner or later leads to losing users. We'll stay with maximum CE12 until there's either a proper task navigation back or the computer systems won't support it any longer and then see where we go from there. I want to work productively without constantly cursing the software... that's what my boss expects from me, too, by the way.
Ilija Minic said:What is lacking, however, is the numbers being used for the Main/manipulation commands. 3,2-Move 2,1-Fence, 5-1, change element attributes etc. These are fundamental across all workflows so unless you can show me a better/more efficient use for accessing these commands then my request is that you reinstate this part of the process.
Why not just assign these to more logical keyboard shortcuts so you can find them easily? M for Move, F for Fence, CE or CA for change attributes. Then they work regardless.
Or if you want to you can add the following to the KeyboardShortcuts.xml file. This will add the numeric keys that you desire for the keyboard shortcuts. Its odd that you are not allowed to add numeric keys as the parent in the UI.
<KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Element Selection</Label> <Keyin>choose element</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Place Fence</Label> <Keyin>place fence</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label>Modify Fence</Label> <Keyin>modify fence icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x04" Comment="3"> <Label>Manipulate fence</Label> <Keyin>fence icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x05" Comment="4"> <Label>Fence delete</Label> <Keyin>fence delete</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x06" Comment="5"> <Label>Fence Drop</Label> <Keyin>fence drop</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x07" Comment="6"> <Label>Copy/Move Fence to File</Label> <Keyin>frnce copy tofile</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x04" Comment="3"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Copy</Label> <Keyin>Copy icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label>Move</Label> <Keyin> move icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x04" Comment="3"> <Label>Scale</Label> <Keyin>scale icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x05" Comment="4"> <Label>Rotate</Label> <Keyin>rotate icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x06" Comment="5"> <Label>Mirror</Label> <Keyin>mirror icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x07" Comment="6"> <Label>Array</Label> <Keyin>array icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x08" Comment="7"> <Label>Align</Label> <Keyin>Alignedge</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x09" Comment="8"> <Label>Stretch</Label> <Keyin>stretch icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x0a" Comment="9"> <Label>Copy/Move Parallel </Label> <Keyin>move parallel offset</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x0b" Comment="0"> <Label>Move To Contact</Label> <Keyin>move to contact</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x05" Comment="4"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Update Active View</Label> <Keyin>update view extended</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x06" Comment="5"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Change Attributes</Label> <Keyin>change attributes</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label>Change To Active Area</Label> <Keyin>change area</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x04" Comment="3"> <Label>Change Element Fill type</Label> <Keyin>change fill</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x05" Comment="4"> <Label>Modify Linestyle attributes</Label> <Keyin>modify linestyle icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x06" Comment="5"> <Label>Change Multi-Line</Label> <Keyin>change mline</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x07" Comment="6"> <Label>Match Element Attributes</Label> <Keyin>match icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x08" Comment="7"> <Label>Smart Match</Label> <Keyin>match element</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x07" Comment="6"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Drop Element</Label> <Keyin>Drop Element</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label>Create complex chain</Label> <Keyin>create chain icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x04" Comment="3"> <Label>Create Complex Shape</Label> <Keyin>create shape icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x05" Comment="4"> <Label>Create Region</Label> <Keyin>create region icon</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x06" Comment="5"> <Label>Add To Graphic Group</Label> <Keyin>group add</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x07" Comment="6"> <Label>Drop From Graphic Group</Label> <Keyin>group drop</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x08" Comment="7"> <Label>Group Hole</Label> <Keyin>group holes</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x08" Comment="7"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Modify Element</Label> <Keyin>modify element</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label/> <Keyin/> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x09" Comment="8"> <Label>Delete</Label> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label/> <Keyin/> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x0a" Comment="9"> <Label/> <KeyboardShortcuts> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x02" Comment="1"> <Label>Measure Distance</Label> <Keyin>measure</Keyin> </KeyboardShortcut> <KeyboardShortcut ScanCode="0x03" Comment="2"> <Label/> <Keyin/> </KeyboardShortcut> </KeyboardShortcuts> </KeyboardShortcut>
~HTH
John.
yep
That's a fair point and I absolutely get what you mean. Widescreens have been a pain exactly for that reason. Perhaps if there was an option to side-mount the ribbon? But the slowness of it is certainly a big-ticket item which should have been properly resolved before it was even brought out. One thing to remember is that the only way we'll get our message across is by raising tickets with Bentley and getting as many people as we can to do so. I appreciate that it isn't easy from the Bentley side of it either but there does seem to be a lot of 'Bentley World' decisions which impact real-world users and the response has left a fair bit to be desired.
What I like about the task thing is that you can see most of those tools at a glance you use on a daily basis. What I don't like about ribbons is that you have to switch between the different sections. That means an extra mouse movement and an extra click just to go find the tool you need (or extra key strokes ALT + key until you get to the desired ribbon section). Well I could also just arrange all tool boxes I want but still e. g. E,3 or A,1 won't work then.
I'm not completely against Ribbons. In MS Office I find my way around but what do you do there? You normally write and you can open a context menu containing most of what you need in normal tasks. A CAD application, however, is something completely different and is tool driven. You don't just draw lines all day long. I just don't get why oh why we need a ribbon bar in Microstation at all... just because everyone else is doing it? In other specialist software I am using there's no ribbons.
'If it aint broke don't fix it' comes to mind. It has its own logic, has been around for ages and what would the numbers be assigned for in that case? It is also likely to cause conflicts with existing letters (R for Rotate? That's already taken as one example)If it's a change which allows greater efficiency I'm all for it, but not change for its own sake. Also re-learning those commands would reduce my efficiency by at least 50% and would take months at a minimum to get back to the speed I'm at now.