Level Number Map

RE: Level Number Map

Johan De Cock — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 16:23:11 GMT

Thank you for the insights!

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717258"]When I experienced Revit and seen how it approached things, it was like night and day and made perfect sense and so I took to it immediately; I embraced the difference, the freshness of the software (GUI/Tools etc...) but there was one factor which was most important above all else. If you compare MS V8i to ABD or MS CONNECT to OBD, they are very very similar in appearance, in operation and contain many of the same tools and dialogs etc.. Now if you compare Revit to AutoCAD, they aren't even close and for that reason, given my absolute dislike for AutoCAD, I saw immediately that it was a completely different and therefore I had no bias preventing me to want to learn Revit and it was therefore a very enjoyable learning experience.[/quote]

It's funny how personal such things are, I'd say it's an advantage to keep to a similar interface.

[quote userid="2473" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717257"]Please, respect the best practices, stay focused to the original question and do not steal the discussion with own new topic.[/quote]

Sure, I'll let it rest. I didn't see any harm since the topic had evolved into the direction where I picked up.

RE: Level Number Map

Barry Lothian — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:47:31 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]If not a direct comparison then at least indirect.[/quote]

Umm no, I never made any comparison between the 2 applications.

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]You said yourself that you used MS V8i on "level 2 BIM projects", then start your argumentation for MS not being a BIM software[/quote]

I'll start by providing a definition of what a Level 2 BIM project is:

"Level 2 involves developing building information in a collaborative 3D environment with data attached, but created in separate discipline models."

We used a CDE (ProjectWise Online iirc), a project structure which separated disciplines (amongst other things) and federated models, but what critically missing was attached Data. The geometry contained absolutely ZERO data, nothing more than SmartSolid's drawn at 1:1 and geospatially located in 3D space. Had the same drawings and models been stored on a local network server, it wouldn't have been deemed a BIM project so the fact that it was being titled a Level 2 BIM project by the client was (IMO) incorrect and nowhere near to the true definition. Basically, BIM without the I.

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]In that post and others you repeatedly mention/compare with Revit.[/quote]

I mention it yes (as its the software I will be using for most projects at some point in the future), but I do not compare one against the other. By all means, feel free to quote where I compare similar features of both applications against each other and outline pro's & con's or opine which is better....

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]I'd be very interested to know if you ever considered AECOsim / OBD as an alternative?[/quote]

I did use AECOsim and found it to be a truly awful experience. There was just so many things I hated about it: 5-6 icons on my desktop for different disciplines (or whatever), the terminology it used for certain things was confusing and the parametric studio made me want to self harm. ABD was like MicroStation but with extra stuff added that felt clunky and I just didn't like how it worked at all.

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]In my opinion going from MS to Revit for construction/building projects is almost as big a step as going from 2D AutoCAD to Revit. [/quote]

When I experienced Revit and seen how it approached things, it was like night and day and made perfect sense and so I took to it immediately; I embraced the difference, the freshness of the software (GUI/Tools etc...) but there was one factor which was most important above all else. If you compare MS V8i to ABD or MS CONNECT to OBD, they are very very similar in appearance, in operation and contain many of the same tools and dialogs etc.. Now if you compare Revit to AutoCAD, they aren't even close and for that reason, given my absolute dislike for AutoCAD, I saw immediately that it was a completely different and therefore I had no bias preventing me to want to learn Revit and it was therefore a very enjoyable learning experience.

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717115"]Though this is quite off-topic compared to the original topic[/quote]

On this I will agree (partly my fault of course, but that's just how some topics evolve) and I won't be replying further to this topic. If you want to discuss a similar theme then feel free to create a new topic.

RE: Level Number Map

Jan Šlegr — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:42:12 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717228"]I'd be very interested to know[/quote]

Please, respect the best practices, stay focused to the original question and do not steal the discussion with own new topic.

The original question was about old MicroStation tool, not available in the new versions. When you are interested in comparing products, create a new post.

Regards,

Jan

RE: Level Number Map

Johan De Cock — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:23:58 GMT

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717150"]Is there a direct comparison being made between Revit and MicroStation??[/quote]

If not a direct comparison then at least indirect. You said yourself that you used MS V8i on "level 2 BIM projects", then start your argumentation for MS not being a BIM software. In that post and others you repeatedly mention/compare with Revit.

I'd be very interested to know if you ever considered AECOsim / OBD as an alternative? In my opinion going from MS to Revit for construction/building projects is almost as big a step as going from 2D AutoCAD to Revit.

RE: Level Number Map

Barry Lothian — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 09:40:58 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/717115"]I agree it's a strange comparison between Microstation and BIM modelling software.[/quote]

Is there a direct comparison being made between Revit and MicroStation??

RE: Level Number Map

Johan De Cock — Fri, 17 Jun 2022 07:11:30 GMT

Though this is quite off-topic compared to the original topic.

I agree it's a strange comparison between Microstation and BIM modelling software. Though indeed Microstation offers quite a lot of functionality, with Item Types, which might be a lot more compared to other CAD applications.

A correct comparison to Revit (or ArchiCAD, SketchUp, BricsCAD BIM, ...) would be to Openbuildings Designer. In my opinion Bentley does a good job with OBD, though the remarks about bugs that Barry made is applicable here as well.

When looking at "production" level software (Tekla, Allplan, Advance Steel, ...) the comparison should be made to ProStructures.

RE: Level Number Map

jpln — Thu, 16 Jun 2022 15:59:23 GMT

Interesting conversation even for non architect as I am. It looks like there is a comparison between MicroStation CONNECT and Revit. Maybe I am wrong.

They are not same type of product. MicroStation CONNECT is a powerful general CAD platform BIM enabled with some functionalities such as item types (custom properties sets), collaborative environment, etc. but it is not engineering specific.
It is the platform for many applications such as Building, Rail, Road, Bridge, Water,...

If we want to do a comparison, then we should compare OpenBuilding Designer to Revit.

RE: Level Number Map

Tet Shin Yong — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 21:15:03 GMT

More detailed response to follow.

RE: Level Number Map

Barry Lothian — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 11:19:47 GMT

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]I then was forced back into CAD for pure 2D work as I began my professional career, and became proficient to the extend that I ended up developing CAD standards for a number of firms I worked in.[/quote]

I began with MicroStation 95 on a DOS network (that was interesting when one machine crashed and everyone had to reboot their machines as they were all connected in serial). I've been completely stubborn in that I've always worked with MicroStation, other than the occasions where I wanted to learn or work with Revit. Aside from 1 year unemployment during the 'Financial Crisis' in 2009, I've worked with either and never had to solely use AutoCAD. I simply refused to use something I knew was so utterly inferior and infuriating to use. My previous employer as an office of entirely AutoCAD users. I joined them as a sole Revit user as they were keen to transition into it. The Main project I worked on was quite tricky, a Mixed-Use 5 storey building (Retail units on the ground floor plus a basement for storage, 2 flats per storey on floors 1-4) and 3 Townhouses to the rear, each with different Ground to 1st Floor heights. Unfortunately some of the staff simply couldn't understand that certain tasks (which could be achieved by a couple of lines on a drawing) required a much more involved solution in Revit. In a sense I agreed because I knew the same was true if I was creating the same end-result drawings in MicroStation. I felt burned-out by the whole experience in that office and when I was offered my current position, I was fortunate to be asked what software I wanted to use, so I chose MicroStation, and it was the correct choice to make. However, there are a lot of things I do miss with Revit and there will be some things I do a little different which will help.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]Why generic 5" walls were part of the basic wall family, I'll never figure out, because there's no such thing.[/quote]

Its different in 2022, as such Generic types don't exist in the default Architectural Template. If you create a project without a Template, you need at least 1 type of System Family per category, with walls it looks as below. Most advancer users will either edit it or delete it one they have at one or more of their own Wall-types created.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]Revit's ability to handle stairs and their associated handrails is so crippled by fact that it treats landings as treads. I've barely managed to build a family for simple metal pan switchback stairs that will generate proper guardrails & handrail configurations.[/quote]

Yeah stairs were one of the big frustrations in my previous (aforementioned) Revit project. In the Main Building's Common Stair, there were variable floor levels and different component constructions (Composite concrete deck landings with a screed finish and pressed-metal flights with concrete screed-filled pan treads). As you mention, the Stair Tools cannot create that representation in 3D so the pan's are done in 2D although advanced users tend to model stairs using different families instead. The railings in that stair required a total of 52 Railing Families to make the different balustrades parts and handrails to ultimately create the overall railing as required. The Townhouses were a little simpler, but you wouldn't think that to look at them due to double quarter-turn landings and carved timber Stringers.

Common Stair:

Townhouse Stair:

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]Thus begs the question - is there any way I can get v8i using my student status,[/quote]

Not sure TBH, perhaps like users with a perpetual license, you would need place a service request asking for the V8i SS10 Installer file.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]Having just secured my first major independent commission, I've no real options but Revit. Or Sketchup into CAD, which is a far faster design development process, as Revit is a production platform, not a design platform, no matter how hard it tries, it's just too cumbersome compared to Sketchup.[/quote]

Given your described situation, have you considered not using the expected traditional CAD/BIM approach and solely using SketchUp instead? There are some people who do use it exclusively; Nick Sonder is probably the most well known, and I suspect (assumption based purely on my interpretation of your few posts to date) that you both share similar Architectural values when it comes to drawing production and Architectural Design principles.

https://www.nicksonder.com

He has a book where he details all the steps he uses to create what I believe they call in the US, Construction Documents, called SketchUp & LayOut for Architecture:
https://sketchupbook.com

Aesthetically, his drawings are like nothing I have seen elsewhere before:

There are also plenty of videos of Nick showing his process, here is a playlist on YouTube that might interest you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTtB8XeJuhs&list=PL-bndkJaV8A6tVUVIlqFHMAcodO8aATrh

Another stylistic alternative can be seen in the work of Eric from 30x40 Design Workshop who only uses AutoCAD LT yet still creates brilliant looking drawings:
https://youtu.be/HEo0NqYputQ

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]When you get back into Revit, assuming you're an architect, I would offer a suggestion - check out Enscape. It uses the gaming engine to map textures fast, with lighting, so you can walk around in your developing building design.[/quote]

I'm not an Architect, originally an Architectural Technician with numerous titles and positions since then. I'm familiar with Enscape but haven't used it. It seems good at what it does, but its certainly no VRay, which was my renderer of choice when I worked in Arch Viz.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704728"]My thanks for a comprehensive response that concisely dialed me into the morass I'm confronted with.[/quote]

No problem, I think its only fair that you be given an honest assessment of how things are from a user-perspective on the MicroStation side of the fence. Many years ago I would have wholeheartedly recommended switching across to V8i but I won't do so with CONNECT, not least until its in a working conditional comparable to V8i (although the GUI will unlikely change) but as I won't be using it, I would be reliant upon the opinions of the forum users that I trust here, to confirm how each update is being received.

As I said before, these are only my opinions and come the beginning of next week, others may offer you a different POV, but ultimately its for you to make up your own mind how you wish to proceed. No software is perfect, you just have to accept their fallibilities and pick what suits you best, warts and all.

RE: Level Number Map

Tet Shin Yong — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 22:23:31 GMT

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704707"]Well, that's interesting but in my opinion, you are about 20 years too late, as MicroStation's heyday has been and gone. As per my previous paragraph, some forum members as so annoyed with the current status quo that they are doing (or at least considering) the opposite (whether it be to AutoCAD or Revit or maybe something entirely different), albeit reluctantly as none of us long-term users are happy to leave an application we have used for so many years.[/quote]

I don't disagree at all, as I've myself traveled the same evolutionary path starting with MicroStation in 1992 in full 3D, transitioning to 2D on AutoCAD DOS in 1994 (yes I know it was 3D capable, and with SoftDesk's Auto Architect, tried to reach some semblance of what I had been indoctrinated in. Returning to Microstation SE with full 3D materials mapping, with artificial lighting sources as well as sun lighting, on self-built PC workstations - dual Pentium-200 systems with 3DLabs Graphics Cards, I spent a good 6 years building student work, and post-grad research, some of which was published, some of which is in a permanent exhibit in the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale. I then was forced back into CAD for pure 2D work as I began my professional career, and became proficient to the extend that I ended up developing CAD standards for a number of firms I worked in. Revit trained in 2007, but only started real project deployment of Revit in 2019, struggling to develop my own families. Why generic 5" walls were part of the basic wall family, I'll never figure out, because there's no such thing. Revit's ability to handle stairs and their associated handrails is so crippled by fact that it treats landings as treads. I've barely managed to build a family for simple metal pan switchback stairs that will generate proper guardrails & handrail configurations. And don't' get me started on exterior envelope systems integration with floor membrane systems.

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704707"]I myself simply refuse to use CONNECT and so remain happily on V8i SS10[/quote]

Thus begs the question - is there any way I can get v8i using my student status, which provides CONNECT absolutely free. Of course it's Bentley's ploy to get CONNEDCT out there at the get go with architectural students. I'd have no issue paying some sort of student discounted license for v8i, but I fear that effort is doomed. Having just secured my first major independent commission, I've no real options but Revit. Or Sketchup into CAD, which is a far faster design development process, as Revit is a production platform, not a design platform, no matter how hard it tries, it's just too cumbersome compared to Sketchup.

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704707"]you will find many disgruntled users who are unhappy with many of the forced changes brought with CONNECT: Poor performance, broken features, bugs galore, implementation of 'The Ribbon' with no 'Classic Interface' option for users to choose, removal of the Menu Bar, removal of tools either replaced with ones of lesser quality/functionality or merged with others.[/quote]

And how does Bentley believe such a dismal progression will lead to further development. Same way Autodesk does with Revit, I guess. But with Revit, there's at least a fairly robust structure to start with, even if you need to wrestle it into doing what you want, it is nevertheless possible. Thus far, I see no such potential in CONNECT. In fact, it appears to be the software version of "special needs" kids, spawned from perfectly capable kids. Not sure if that analogy quite works, but I'ma cram it in anyway.

[quote userid="60593" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704707"]Blender's GUI, it offers users customisability that MicroStation users can only dream about, and they're even making headway into the BIM side of things, time will tell if it becomes a relevant player in that market or not.[/quote]

Don't count Trimble out. They've made some serious moves about 5 years ago, partnering with Microsoft's HoloLens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmpoCjz0Yc0

Though the fact that it stopped there probably means it, well, stopped.

When you get back into Revit, assuming you're an architect, I would offer a suggestion - check out Enscape. It uses the gaming engine to map textures fast, with lighting, so you can walk around in your developing building design.

My thanks for a comprehensive response that concisely dialed me into the morass I'm confronted with.

RE: Level Number Map

Barry Lothian — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 21:29:06 GMT

Press Reply then select text in the post you wish to quote, and press the quote popup that appears

RE: Level Number Map

Tet Shin Yong — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 21:06:51 GMT

Noobie Q: how do I quote in this interface so I can respond in kind?

RE: Level Number Map

Tet Shin Yong — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 21:00:32 GMT

So if I understand you correctly, the software I was introduced to in 1992 was a port of a DOS-based attempt at implementing IGDS called MicroStation? If Bentley ported MicroStation to Intergraph Clipper-based mini-computers in the 80's, that would explain why I was introduced to "MicroStation" on a stand-alone Intergraph machine.

I have some trouble wrapping my mind around this progression in terms of pure capability of the hardware platforms - IGDS on UNIX VAX-based mini-computers ported to a Personal Computer built around an 8286 16-bit CPU, with no GUI, which was then ported back to a full blown UNIX VAX-centered mini-computer?

RE: Level Number Map

Barry Lothian — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 11:42:40 GMT

So, to recap, you would basically like to see the return of the old Level display from the MicroStation 95 days etc..?

Unfortunately, I think you will find there is more a chance of 'Hell Freezing Over' than Bentley reimplementing such a feature, there have been many more relevant feature requests which simply have never materialised.

However, if such a feature was absolutely critical, I daresay a competent programmer familiar with MicroStation could be commissioned to recreate it as an Addin using either C#/WPF or perhaps C++ and whichever libraries could provide a GUI.

Screen Menu's are a possibility but I'm unsure if Named Expressions can be used to reflect a Level's on/off state.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704692"]BUT this doesn't mean the need for the simpler organizational grid system must be eradicated. Surely they're not mutually exclusive. Sometimes, evolution doesn't require the genocide of a species type, if the evolutionary process folds in the adaptation of the previous evolution. Simply put, we still have the same five senses the cavemen did, we simply have much greater faculty of interpreting their input.[/quote]

Well, if you hang around here long enough (or perhaps dig through previous topics related to CONNECT), you will find many disgruntled users who are unhappy with many of the forced changes brought with CONNECT: Poor performance, broken features, bugs galore, implementation of 'The Ribbon' with no 'Classic Interface' option for users to choose, removal of the Menu Bar, removal of tools either replaced with ones of lesser quality/functionality or merged with others. The list goes on, but what is clear is that regardless of complaints, Bentley doesn't care for its user base and only a fool would believe otherwise. Just my opinion of course, some may feel different (and that's entirely their choice), but evidence of the contrary would be heeding the calls to reimplement features like the Menu Bar again yet its continuously stone-walled.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704692"] I'm more than willing to find reasons to move from Autodesk to Bentley, but there needs to be some development.[/quote]

Well, that's interesting but in my opinion, you are about 20 years too late, as MicroStation's heyday has been and gone. As per my previous paragraph, some forum members as so annoyed with the current status quo that they are doing (or at least considering) the opposite (whether it be to AutoCAD or Revit or maybe something entirely different), albeit reluctantly as none of us long-term users are happy to leave an application we have used for so many years. I myself simply refuse to use CONNECT and so remain happily on V8i SS10, but I am also slowly once again creating Annotation Families and a new Project Template in Revit 2022, with the eventual intention of going back to it permanently, after a 3 year break.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704692"] After all, at the end of the day, all these programs do the same thing. They're surface modelers with some parametric capability to claim BIM-worthiness.[/quote]

MicroStation uses both Solid and Surfaces, but its certainly not a BIM application nor worthy to be considered for such a use. I have used it on Level 2 BIM projects, but its they weren't true BIM projects as the geometry contained no data, just bog-standard solid geometry modelled in a geospatially correct location.

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704692"]When I first started using Microstation, there was an elegance to the GUI, borne from it's Unix roots. I'm now seeing a more blocky cumbersome "Windows" look, that just doesn't have the same slickness. [/quote]

There's no doubt the Ribbon takes up a lot of screen real-estate, Tasks (unsure if you have seen those in during your absence) also took up space, but it is much more flexible with its resizing. I don't mind the Ribbon in Revit however, perhaps because I've never known anything different there, and I find it works well as I don't have to hunt for what I need. Slick interfaces are a rarity but I believe the term can be applied to Blender's GUI, it offers users customisability that MicroStation users can only dream about, and they're even making headway into the BIM side of things, time will tell if it becomes a relevant player in that market or not.

RE: Level Number Map

Jon Summers — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 10:24:39 GMT

[quote userid="1246219" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/704692"]Intergraph VAX-based Clippers[/quote]

The Intergraph Graphic Design System (IGDS) started on DEC PDP-10 and move to the VAX/VMS computers. Intergraph developed their own UNIX (CLIX) workstation that used the CLIPPER processor, and to which they ported IGDS. IGDS stored graphic data in an Intergraph Standard Format File (ISFF). ISFF was a published file spec, so others could us it, including Bentley Systems.

MicroStation was initially an app for Microsoft DOS. It enabled a user to view and edit an ISFF file. The UI was rudimentary until Windows 95 arrived. MicroStation was one of the first apps. for Windows NT at its introduction in 1993.

From the 1980s Bentley Systems ported MicroStation to a large number of platforms, including various UNIX workstations, the DEC VAX and a version for the Apple Mac. On UNIX platforms, the UI was implemented using X-Windows technology, which may have been the elegant UI that you recall.

With the introduction of MicroStation V8, Bentley committed 100% to Microsoft and dropped all other platforms. MicroStation in the 21^st century is Windows-only. See the History of MicroStation.

RE: Level Number Map

Tet Shin Yong — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 08:53:57 GMT

Mr Bell, as a practicing architect of 25+ years, who started in Microstation when it was still on Intergraph VAX-based Clippers, and who now uses, albeit very grudgingly, Revit, I completely understand what Bentley had to do to the layer system.

I can claim a more than passing familiarity with the layer system, as I was the one who worked with Autodesk's Tech Desk in 2012 to figure out the massive file bloat when one import something from DGN to DWG with . It was a simple translational issue of line type styles, and we needed a translation matrix. Without which, something fundamental to the element definition structure "fractured" in the DWG file, and files that should've been less than 500KB ended up at 10MB. It was an intrinsic issue - meaning once you 'infected' a file, deletion of the DGN import, purging, command line purging, nothing but a 'Ctrl-Z' would save your file. So if you saved and closed out, you were done.

Forgive my digression. I'm chiming in because I only used Microstation in Arch School, and in am back finishing my MArch at Pratt Institute, while having just scored my first personal architectural commission. So I'm looking at this from all sides.

And I can absolutely see the point that a small one-man outfit, who uses the 8x8 grid of yore in a visual manner, as I did myself, it is an exceedingly fast & efficient organizational method that keys into an architect's base training - visual cues. For instance, my first row of eight defined primary massing, the second row the form, the third row, the structure, the fourth row, the lighting - it was visual rational planned with rigor and utterly intuitive. Just as Mr Singleton describes his own methodology from an engineering perspective - it works.

And yes, only in small projects, with limited no. of staff on it. The latter is a given, as hardly anyone is fluent in Microstation, however, the former, unfortunately due to it's retained use in all major transportation projects within State & Federal jurisdictions means large projects. The last firm I worked at, Zyscovich Architects, completed in 2020 Miami International Airport's latest terminal. There's a dedicated transportation studio of Microstation veterans that take these types of project on at Zyscovich.

BUT this doesn't mean the need for the simpler organizational grid system must be eradicated. Surely they're not mutually exclusive. Sometimes, evolution doesn't require the genocide of a species type, if the evolutionary process folds in the adaptation of the previous evolution. Simply put, we still have the same five senses the cavemen did, we simply have much greater faculty of interpreting their input.

So yes, this is hearty "Hear hear!" in response to Mr. Singleton's post. Perhaps if you read my bio, new as I am to this particular forum community, you might see I speak from a position of some fair experience in both academia & professional practice, with full CAD & Revit fluency too.

I'd be grateful if you could acknowledge this message, and ecstatic if you / Bentley expressed a willingness to revisit the issue with someone who was once offered a job there while he was an architectural undergrad, and who has some knowledge of "what goes on behind the scenes", if you will. And as a professional who's just signed his first major commission, I'm more than willing to find reasons to move from Autodesk to Bentley, but there needs to be some development.

When I first started using Microstation, there was an elegance to the GUI, borne from it's Unix roots. I'm now seeing a more blocky cumbersome "Windows" look, that just doesn't have the same slickness. Facility aside, you can get a lot of attention from your GUI. After all, at the end of the day, all these programs do the same thing. They're surface modelers with some parametric capability to claim BIM-worthiness. We're not talking Solidworks, or Catia, or any of the myriad self written / customized software like Ove Arup developed combining computational fluid dynamics with simple prioritized avatar behavior to model likely human surge directions in sudden, drastic fire events in large spaces. RWDI's CFD analysis software has been customized with materials science in metallurgy. You have a huge fan, you were the first, you're still the most accurate, and so please.

Sincerely,

TS Yong

RE: Level Number Map

Jan Šlegr — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:56:14 GMT

[quote userid="317889" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/547786"]than the old display mode using numbers works really well and quick.[/quote]

Yes, but it does not automatically mean that the names-based system cannot work similarly efficiently. In my opinion it's mostly about configuration and work organization, even though it's always complicated to compare two different ways how to work.

[quote userid="317889" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/547786"]Easier to pick a circle than go to the list and scroll down to find it.[/quote]

The situation can be changed to simpler using proper naming and filters (named or dynamic).

Often, when I need to check model from a user and there are huge amount of levels defined in dgnlibs (or even existing in the file, but not used), the first step is to change the list to display used levels only. From tens or even hundreds levels become just a few used and to scroll through the list is necessary rarely.

[quote userid="317889" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/186638/level-number-map/547786"]So I have one assembly in levels 0-9, then the next assembly will fall into 10-19 and so forth. Just made things quicker and easier for me.[/quote]

I assume (but have not tested it) when levels will be named systematically, filters can be defined in such way to filter mentioned groups of levels (e.g. 10 - 19), so the manipulation will be simpler. And when it's the same in all files, to define custom F keys, keyboard shortcuts or menu customization can do some tasks even faster than to select circles in dialogs.

With regards,

Jan

RE: Level Number Map

Peter Singleton — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:39:08 GMT

Hello Andrew:

Yes, I realize all of what you said is correct. I am not trying to change anything or say anything is wrong. I just like using the old style Level Display box as it worked so well for me. If I was tech savvy I would recreate it but I don't know how to right any sort of code. I was just hoping there was someone else that wanted the 'old way' like me and had already recreated it.

The only thing I would disagree with is, if like me one never uses hundreds of levels, and they have a 'mental system' of knowing what parts are on one level due to familiarity and the relatively low number of levels, than the old display mode using numbers works really well and quick. Easier to pick a circle than go to the list and scroll down to find it. I also had the level display set up in a 10 column grid and work in sub-assemblies or parts by row. So I have one assembly in levels 0-9, then the next assembly will fall into 10-19 and so forth. Just made things quicker and easier for me. I also use 10 colors, so if I am in level 24, I know it is yellow. Helps to quickly know which level I need to turn on/off.

Will keep going with what is available until a clever guy like you comes along to help me out!

RE: Level Number Map

Andrew Bell — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:18:27 GMT

As has already been explained here by a number of people this concept of the old level number map containing the limited 64 levels was something that was replaced with the Level Display dialog. This is due to the major change in operation between V7 and V8 DGN file format where the amount of levels that can be defined in a file are now virtually unlimited. The concept of the numbers against each level is also a concept that only really remains as a legacy workflow due to these old concepts. I would suggest having a closer look at the operations of the Level Display dialog as it should not be too much of a difference to turn levels on and off like you did before. As you stated the Level Name you have in your design file are still the numbers so you can just a click on each of these levels to turn them on or off.

https://docs.bentley.com/LiveContent/web/MicroStation%20Help-v15/en/LevelDisplay.html

RE: Level Number Map

Peter Singleton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 16:45:47 GMT

I understand, but I just import my level library file with names, numbers, colors etc. So I don’t really create levels, just reuse the same library.

My levels are usually based on plate thickness and sub-assembly.

RE: Level Number Map

Peter Singleton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 16:43:14 GMT

If I can’t remember just quickly torn them all on, highlight the pice, observe level number, turn all off, then turn on what I want. That procedure is worst case. Usually I can remember the right number because there aren’t too many. Just more than will fit in a small level display box.

Note my designs are relatively small and normally easy to see the whole file.

RE: Level Number Map

John Frampton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:33:35 GMT

The level number map wasn't usable in a system that auto-generates the numbers. It was removed from CONNECT because of usability

RE: Level Number Map

Tim Hickman — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:27:17 GMT

how do you keep track of what is on each level ?

Meaning - 3 weeks later you open the file and lets say levels 1,5, and 25 are on and all the rest are off and you need to see some piece or part that is turned off - how do you know what level to turn on ?

RE: Level Number Map

Peter Singleton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:19:50 GMT

Yes I have done that. My levels have a name "1" , "2" etc They don't even say 'level'. So really its all setup the way I like. Now if I could just have an MDL or something to create the 10x8 grid of circles in the Level Display box it would be back to 'normal' for this old user.

RE: Level Number Map

Bob Rayner — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:10:44 GMT

I too miss the simplicity of level numbers, but upgrading to names was pretty much a necessity. Microstation still assigns a number to each level, but they no longer function as before, ie you can't say of=140 for a layer called Wall that happens to be number 140. That being said, you can simply create or rename your levels to plain old numbers. Then they will function as before. When you bring a file forward to v8, it will change Level "1" to "Level 1", you can just rename it.