Strange behaviour and orientation of cells (cell definition according to view and not coordinate system?)

Microstation update 16.

Hello,

I have to confess i am going mad. Everything i touch in microstation works against me.

So i model parametric cell as a cylinder in Z and base point in w0,0,0. 

I define insertion point at w0,0,0 and create a parametric cell out of it.

When placing the cell the orientation does not keep coordinates in which the parametric cell was created.

It was created like this:

As a cell it is placed like this:

Dont tell me please that i have to define a cell in the specific view and view determines the orientation because thats sounds to me like not the best idea. And where is that info provided during the definiton dialog, because its not logical nor obvious at all?

This is a 3d (and 2d) modelling software. View is nothing but view. We work in coordinate systems not views. Z is Z no matter the view. View can be perspective, what is view then? View HAS TO BE irellevant. Coordinate system dictates orientation of objects in all other modelling softwares known to me and its the ONLY correct way.

In a professional software while defining cell you should be able to set your coordinates or at least choose if you want it to be in reference to what (view, current ACS, WCS, user defined...).

This just feels it was never designed for 3d and comes from 2d age where orientation is less important. One has no control about essentials to cell definition which is insertion point and COORDINATE SYTEM.

The same goes to copy/paste. It pastes according to view from which it was copied (non-sensical).

Is there a good reason i am overlooking why it was designed/kept like this?

Thanks and no offense.

Parents
  • OK i have followed everything i am done. I created a cell in top view and placed it in top view i still get it oriented oddly.

  • When I place a cell in 3D I need to give it the AccuDraw orientation TOP. If you are in a top view your placement should be fine. But I like to work in some rotated view. (just like in sketchup etc.)

    I would also appreciate that TOP would be the default whatever the view rotation is. But for this you have to activate accudraw (I use the tentative) and use O and T before placement.

    You also need to define a ACS with any given rotation if your model is not orthogonal to the coordinates. Then - if ACS-Lock is on  your AccuDraw T; F; S is aligned to the ACS.

    The parametric cells do not allow to be placed interactively I recon (? like normal cells). That should also

    I guess the availability of seetings and defaults need to be be reviewed for user friendliness. It is not easy especially if you come from more intuitive 3D programs. Users should not need to learn the 30+ years of 3D handling history. I have seen a number of much more intuitive approaches... I understand why that could drive you mad...

  • Hi,

    it is a mix. Today there are great examples of intuitive UIs, but those programs are limited in functionality or compatibility. In many areas microStation has very powerful concepts to get things done - AccuDraw to be named as a prominent one. To get the full potential you have to invest in a couple of hours of learning for that one alone - the universality to use it across many functions is stunning if you think about it.

    Other areas really need a fresh overhaul. Default settings, Seed files and "Starters Ease" appear some of the issues to look into. For newbies they are often more than challenging. And oldtimers may still be annoyed.

    It requires more user demand though to prioritize development. Check the ideas - and file Service Tickets when the pain reaches your threshold...  Progress is not just one big leap, it needs enhancement in the detail.

    microStation is complex and - still - needs good deal of training to get your head around the basics and concepts. Today free training is what people expect. Everyone demands quick, quicker, quickest results. There are lots of videos around. 
    But to become well seasoned you still need get your hands dirty and go down the rabbit hole yourself. imho

  • When you do not like such tone, why so many your posts / questions are very similar, expressing at first how bad and buggy MicroStation is and that it's obvious other software does it much better, so not in constructive tone also?

    I have read other posts from other people asking good questions ang getting not adequate response and i transcended my notion in here. 

    I am not a fan of any soft (most likable out of most hated personally for me is Rhino :)) each one has its strengths and weaknesses and all share common problem that they have to carry burdens/compatibility from past (20th century) versions. But my expectations and ability to accept flaws is proportional to the price tag.

    When any cell is placed, AccuDraw is the core tool (as for many other operations in MicroStation) and AccuDraw defines the orientation (as Gerd mentioned, ACS lockscan be involved in certain situations too). You cropped your screen captures, so it's not clear how AccuDraw and locks are set, so hard to analyze whether they can be source of the discussed issue.

    I was in top view placing a cell which was defined in top view and it did not work. Then i left it alone and in an hour doing the same yielded in success. My suspicion is that maybe cell definition even though displaying correctly was indeed older version when i had created it not in top view and somehow older definition was placed. But this is only my speculation.

    But what Gerd mentioned is true in my eyes. User should have clear control over cell definition. There is no step in the definition which would suggest that it is view dependant. Maybe if instead of insertion point you define insertion axes it would be obvious. In 3d space and modelling commands should work independently from views. Blatant UI unintuitivness cant be alwast justified by saying there is a documentation. Its like if steering wheel in the car worked the opposite way. So turning right would mean turning left Smiley

    Thank you for reasonable answers.

  • In many areas microStation has very powerful concepts to get things done

    Yeah thats why i advocated for it to become our firms main platform. Mainly due to superior referencing system and compatibility with lots of file formats. Its only biggest essential flaw right now is that it does not work well with shared cells which i checked in ideas to improve and this should be implemented (shared cells editor), hopefully soon enough.

    I have been diving deeper into item types and parametric cells and i encountered many issues along the way so i started to doubt its superiority a bit because it indeed feels buggy and not "industrially" reliable in some areas. I am not amazed by basic functionality any more :).

    I still have hope that in upcoming years it will evolve to a really nearly perfect product.

  • Most workflows do not apply to the steering wheel picture. Often - same as in general life - things do not work as expected. To take another steering example, the history of left- and right- hand traffic. The world is divided. One can do both and neither is better. But only where applicable... Anyway it requires some or more training and effort to get used to it and to become "habit".

    Regarding a "perfect product" - my experience is that there is none. Active user demand (including comparing competition) the major driver to better existing products.

  • I was in top view placing a cell which was defined in top view and it did not work. Then i left it alone and in an hour doing the same yielded in success.

    I think that the problem is that you probably had the ACS lock on.

    The help file needs to be improved massively. It makes no mention of the effect that the ACS lock has.

    "In 3D, the cell retains the orientation in which it was created. For example, a cell created in a Top view always is placed as though it is a Top view. "

    When the Cell is created, it uses the active ACS as its coordinate system. It does NOT have to align with the View.

    I agree that there should be an ACS widget that can be flicked on to show the user the Cell's coordinate system, which is based on its insertion point. Should be easy to do. The current small white cross that displays when the Define Cell Origin is used is ancient and could do with an update to reflect the prevelance of 3d working these days.

    Old users who hate new features because this distracts Bentley from fixing their SRs look away now... Stuck out tongue winking eye

Reply
  • I was in top view placing a cell which was defined in top view and it did not work. Then i left it alone and in an hour doing the same yielded in success.

    I think that the problem is that you probably had the ACS lock on.

    The help file needs to be improved massively. It makes no mention of the effect that the ACS lock has.

    "In 3D, the cell retains the orientation in which it was created. For example, a cell created in a Top view always is placed as though it is a Top view. "

    When the Cell is created, it uses the active ACS as its coordinate system. It does NOT have to align with the View.

    I agree that there should be an ACS widget that can be flicked on to show the user the Cell's coordinate system, which is based on its insertion point. Should be easy to do. The current small white cross that displays when the Define Cell Origin is used is ancient and could do with an update to reflect the prevelance of 3d working these days.

    Old users who hate new features because this distracts Bentley from fixing their SRs look away now... Stuck out tongue winking eye

Children
No Data