What is actually a "Graphic Group"?

Hi.

I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:

- Group

- Named Group.

Group is very limitated because I understand we cannot add/remove elements later. And it is basically a Cell.

I understand that "Graphic Group" is a Named Group...

Because tools such as "Add to Graphic Group" and "Remove From Graphic group" are only for "Named Groups".

http://www.mdlapps.com/microstation/ustnhelp286.html#F26021

There is also "Graphic Group Lock" (ON /OFF) for Named Groups.

Why Bentley differenciates between Graphic Group and Named Group? is not the same? Is the old name of Named Group?

Thanks.

Parents
  • I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:

    - Group

    - Named Group.

    the worst is that it is one dialog - in my view - "Add to Graphic Group" there you have to switch on the Option "Named Group" . Without you get GG, with the option an NG.

    That is confusing.

    Named Groups allow dependencies and "active" and "passive" members.

    The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group" (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request) - In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.

    You can copy GGs (it increases the GG Number)

    Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell. (You can give it a name later in the properties)

  • In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.

    I strongly disagree with such general statement, especially because I know users that use NG daily.

    It does not mean that NG is not usable for you.

    The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group"

    Similarly to Jon I do not quite understand what do you mean by "copy NG":

    • Definition of NG is copied, so I have two exactly the same definitions?
    • A content of NG is copied, so elements are duplicated?
    (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request)

    I do not recall I saw such request in ideas, but they are many of them, so maybe I missed it.

    The request sounds interesting, but is not simple, because NG allows "far referencing", when elements in NG can be from active model, and from direct/nested references. So more conditions have to be fulfilled to allow to create a cell from NG content.

    Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell.

    Well, it's a result of history and only limited "good words" in language. Do you have any idea how one or second tool should be renamed?

    Regards,

      Jan

  • When a Named Group is copied, the copied elements are no longer part of a group. They may have been copied together, but after the copying they have no relation to each other. This, to me, makes them a limited usage item. I mean, it's great I have a group of these things, but that's kind of all I see. I would like the ability to copy a named group and end up with another (probably incremented) named group, or at least an unnamed graphic group.

    I dislike graphic groups because there is no visual cue as to what elements are in the GG, and elements can be manipulated separately (with the selection tool) even if the graphic group lock is on. I can't think of how many times some unrelated element accidentally got included in a graphic group, to end up moved or rotated or otherwise manipulated in unexpected ways (because it wasn't supposed to be part of a GG!).

    There is another type of group that is not a Graphic Group nor a Named Group, and that is the type of group that creates orphan cells. This is actually the type I use most often because it is most useful to me. I can create it on the fly, it is not dependent on any lock status, and if I need to make a copy of this orphan cell group, I get another orphan cell group (still grouped). While this tool is often discouraged, I love it because of the ease of use.

    MaryB

    Power GeoPak 08.11.09.918
    Power InRoads 08.11.09.918
    OpenRoads Designer 2021 R2

        

  • When a Named Group is copied...

    You can assign a propagation policy to a Named Group.

    Opened the Named Group dialog, created a new group, added a few elements. I then copied those elements. They all copy as a named group with graphic group lock on

    One propagation policy is just that: the Change Propagation options are: Group Lock — only when Graphic Group Lock is on.

     
    Regards, Jon Summers
    LA Solutions

  • spot on

    love it because of the ease of us

    So lets define what the use of each of these groupings is Including use cases.I have a hard time to find examples for some. And maybe how they can be advanced (in ideas) 

    I know users that use NG daily

    I would like to understand how they are utilizing them.

  • You can assign a propagation policy

    OK, can one give me an example of a use case? Is this not very obscure? How do I "see" as a subsequent user how these settings have been done for a particular group?

  • Is this not very obscure?

    I think that Named Groups were devised by for MicroStation V8i.  I don't believe that he intended them to be obscure.  As with many things, it's subjective whether something is obscure or arcane; familiarity with NG use will lessen FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt/Angst, Unsicherheit und Zweifel).

     
    Regards, Jon Summers
    LA Solutions

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