I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:
- Named Group.
Group is very limitated because I understand we cannot add/remove elements later. And it is basically a Cell.
I understand that "Graphic Group" is a Named Group...
Because tools such as "Add to Graphic Group" and "Remove From Graphic group" are only for "Named Groups".
There is also "Graphic Group Lock" (ON /OFF) for Named Groups.
Why Bentley differenciates between Graphic Group and Named Group? is not the same? Is the old name of Named Group?
Joan Martínez Serra said:I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:
- Named Group.
the worst is that it is one dialog - in my view - "Add to Graphic Group" there you have to switch on the Option "Named Group" . Without you get GG, with the option an NG.
That is confusing.
Named Groups allow dependencies and "active" and "passive" members.
The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group" (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request) - In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.
You can copy GGs (it increases the GG Number)
Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell. (You can give it a name later in the properties)
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Gerd Eisenacher said:In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.
I strongly disagree with such general statement, especially because I know users that use NG daily.
It does not mean that NG is not usable for you.
Gerd Eisenacher said:The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group"
Similarly to Jon I do not quite understand what do you mean by "copy NG":
Gerd Eisenacher said: (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request)
I do not recall I saw such request in ideas, but they are many of them, so maybe I missed it.
The request sounds interesting, but is not simple, because NG allows "far referencing", when elements in NG can be from active model, and from direct/nested references. So more conditions have to be fulfilled to allow to create a cell from NG content.
Gerd Eisenacher said:Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell.
Well, it's a result of history and only limited "good words" in language. Do you have any idea how one or second tool should be renamed?
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MaryB said:love it because of the ease of us
So lets define what the use of each of these groupings is Including use cases.I have a hard time to find examples for some. And maybe how they can be advanced (in ideas)
Jan Šlegr said:I know users that use NG daily
I would like to understand how they are utilizing them.
Jon Summers said:You can assign a propagation policy
OK, can one give me an example of a use case? Is this not very obscure? How do I "see" as a subsequent user how these settings have been done for a particular group?
Gerd Eisenacher said:Is this not very obscure?
I think that Named Groups were devised by Barry Bentley for MicroStation V8i. I don't believe that he intended them to be obscure. As with many things, it's subjective whether something is obscure or arcane; familiarity with NG use will lessen FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt/Angst, Unsicherheit und Zweifel).
Regards, Jon Summers LA Solutions
Right, but obviously some (including me) would like to know use cases to then decide whether they are applicable for them. We often "think" we understand - like here - only to hit a invisible wall. Maybe it is my lack of imagination (or intellectual capability...)
Another step, another setting, another few clicks before I can get back to working. When I could just select my elements, hit CRTL+G and continue on. I can even give my orphan cell a name in the time it would take to generate a named group.
I am with Gerd on this - I'm sure I lack imagination because I don't grasp the use for named groups. But my drawings aren't all that complicated and they don't have thousands of elements to relate and keep track of. Perhaps if I could see how they would actually provide benefit I would be interested in digging deeper.
But lack of imagination has always been a weakness of mine. I tried taking some art classes in college and one of the teachers actually told me "It's a good thing you're going to be an engineer"
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MaryB said:When I could just select my elements, hit CRTL+G and continue on. I can even give my orphan cell a name in the time it would take to generate a named group
You've changed topic. Grouping elements by creating an anonymous cell (Ctrl-G) is not the same as the ancient Graphic Group mechanism. It pre-dates Named Groups by a MicroStation generation.
The fact that Named Groups exist doesn't stop you using either the Graphic Group or anonymous cell idioms.
What Named Groups do (and for me) is to provide hierarchical groups that can be NESTED - even hierarchical nesting. With active and passive members. So I can move them around grouped grabbing the "active" element or single when grabbing one of the passive.
I have this simplified workplace scenario in mind. RED is active, blue are the passive members. (GG-Lock on)
… Workplace_001 > move active > move passive
I can copy my workgroup -
but then they are no group any more
What would be of real ADDED VALUE is to be able to copy the workplaces (-increment like the legacy GGs), then add them to a hierarchical group … (see the mockup video below) Then you are still able to move things around - either together or single.
(the highlight needs to show what belongs together including the relationship - like the colors I used here)
The only bit that seems to be missing here is the copying with an incemented Name!? And maybe some enhanced highlighting of the relationships
It appears hard to follow the idea that NGs are 1. only one off and 2. to help to JUST create Display Sets
I did not take in account the NGs with members from reference. There it gets quite arcane to me.