I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:
- Named Group.
Group is very limitated because I understand we cannot add/remove elements later. And it is basically a Cell.
I understand that "Graphic Group" is a Named Group...
Because tools such as "Add to Graphic Group" and "Remove From Graphic group" are only for "Named Groups".
There is also "Graphic Group Lock" (ON /OFF) for Named Groups.
Why Bentley differenciates between Graphic Group and Named Group? is not the same? Is the old name of Named Group?
Joan Martínez Serra said:I see 2 ways to create a Group in MicroStation:
- Named Group.
the worst is that it is one dialog - in my view - "Add to Graphic Group" there you have to switch on the Option "Named Group" . Without you get GG, with the option an NG.
That is confusing.
Named Groups allow dependencies and "active" and "passive" members.
The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group" (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request) - In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.
You can copy GGs (it increases the GG Number)
Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell. (You can give it a name later in the properties)
Need help for the selected function? Click into the "Toolsettings" dialog and press F1 For Screenshots try Win+Shift+S on your Keyboard Brauchst Du Hilfe zur gewählen Funktion? Klicke in das "Funktionseinstellungsfenster" und drücke F1
Gerd Eisenacher said:In effect the Named Groups are not useable in practice.
I strongly disagree with such general statement, especially because I know users that use NG daily.
It does not mean that NG is not usable for you.
Gerd Eisenacher said:The worst is though that you can not copy that "Named Group"
Similarly to Jon I do not quite understand what do you mean by "copy NG":
Gerd Eisenacher said: (or create a cell from it) ( it is a longstanding request)
I do not recall I saw such request in ideas, but they are many of them, so maybe I missed it.
The request sounds interesting, but is not simple, because NG allows "far referencing", when elements in NG can be from active model, and from direct/nested references. So more conditions have to be fulfilled to allow to create a cell from NG content.
Gerd Eisenacher said:Also - to confuse new users ? - there is the "Group" command which effectively creates an (unnamed) cell.
Well, it's a result of history and only limited "good words" in language. Do you have any idea how one or second tool should be renamed?
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Gerd Eisenacher said:Is this not very obscure?
I think that Named Groups were devised by Barry Bentley for MicroStation V8i. I don't believe that he intended them to be obscure. As with many things, it's subjective whether something is obscure or arcane; familiarity with NG use will lessen FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt/Angst, Unsicherheit und Zweifel).
Regards, Jon Summers LA Solutions
Right, but obviously some (including me) would like to know use cases to then decide whether they are applicable for them. We often "think" we understand - like here - only to hit a invisible wall. Maybe it is my lack of imagination (or intellectual capability...)
Another step, another setting, another few clicks before I can get back to working. When I could just select my elements, hit CRTL+G and continue on. I can even give my orphan cell a name in the time it would take to generate a named group.
I am with Gerd on this - I'm sure I lack imagination because I don't grasp the use for named groups. But my drawings aren't all that complicated and they don't have thousands of elements to relate and keep track of. Perhaps if I could see how they would actually provide benefit I would be interested in digging deeper.
But lack of imagination has always been a weakness of mine. I tried taking some art classes in college and one of the teachers actually told me "It's a good thing you're going to be an engineer"
Microstation 08.11.09.919Power GeoPak 08.11.09.918Power InRoads 08.11.09.918
MaryB said:When I could just select my elements, hit CRTL+G and continue on. I can even give my orphan cell a name in the time it would take to generate a named group
You've changed topic. Grouping elements by creating an anonymous cell (Ctrl-G) is not the same as the ancient Graphic Group mechanism. It pre-dates Named Groups by a MicroStation generation.
The fact that Named Groups exist doesn't stop you using either the Graphic Group or anonymous cell idioms.
Gerd Eisenacher said: Some would like to know use cases to then decide whether they are applicable for them
For example, using a Named Group to populate a Display Set. Now you can control the display of that NG.
Update: I see that you already mentioned this Wiki on that same topic.
Question to Bentley Systems (Eduardo Lazzarotto): that Wiki article was written in 2004 and is archived. Is it invalid for CONNECT? If it is valid, move it to the current MicroStation Wiki.
Vote for this Idea to have that Wiki brought into the CONNECT era.
There are a couple of ideas regarding requested enhancements for Named Groups that are also worth to VOTE for
https://microstation.ideas.aha.io/ideas/MS-I-263 (including conversation with Michael Salino - you could add to)