2D design review with Markup for microstation

DIALOG TOOLBOX REDLINE TOGGLE to see the tools

I believe navigator or projectwise navigator took over from the old Bentley redline  years ago to create redline review files which create the markup but its not as good as the old red line as I believe you can't draw in it just notes which are then visible in the Markup tools with  keyin .. so without said Navigator software its a pretty useless feature. you can use  flag without Navigator ,  but you use up a microstation license to add a flag/ comment in a dgn as you have to open the dgn to do it.....

Hi Lorys,

Navigator V8i did very well - even better than old Redline regarding overlays, thus referencing Markups. But it is not available any more. The connect edition is only for 3D Projectwise 365 is as well good for 3D and for PDF Markup. But I have not found an obvious way to reference markups.

Once you had used the overlay referencing together with the markup-Dialog in MicroStatiion you find it very cumbersome to work with PDF editors side by side.

I can copy and paste from rather even  any free PDF editor, right?

Bluebeam Revu is good but also quite overwhelming. (I use it for counting symbols for tenders- But it is not reliantly finding all symbols in my scenarios currently) Studio is fine but I guess everyone needs Revu to really work with it(?) And the benefit is not apparent for just redlining some remarks. We use PFD-xChange Editor there.

Redline and Navigator were overwhelming to non CAD-literate Reviewers. And neither are available any more. So I am still looking for the equivalent workflow.

Hence my question.
btw...IGDS+DGN et.al. since '83... 

mlm said:

looking for the equivalent workflow.

There is simply none. Navigator, Powerdraft is retired without anything in replacement. PW365 workflow is only formal to cover missing functionality.

I've never used Redline or Navigator so I'm unsure what format these mark-up's take. When I last worked in a team, I would make PDF's and the PDF's would be returned to me with simple captions and a description of what needed changed. I take it these programs did similar but with DGN's and some distinct annotation tools separate from file geometry?

Hi Oto, hence my question. Seems nobody is missing the functionality.)?( 

Nobody feels tthe PDF review (2D) workflows cumbersome? I mean in comparison to the markup functionality with dgn-overlays. Tthe Markup Dialogs are still in Connect. But one cannot create markups(?) 

I guess PW365 would be the right tool to provide 2D-Sheet Markup (even if the design is 3D) Even if they are subsequent drawings from 3D-models they are more than byproducts. They are deliverables that need to be reviewed, right?

Redlining was  very good and the text note redline was excellent but  there was a lot of training to teach non microstation  non acad  users to use it... its still in microstation for legacy but we havent  used it since it was reissued in Microstation v8i and replaced xm redline...( 2010 ish)...?

However nowdays the Bluebeam review has  overtaken anything  Bentley  would produce  and the BB review studio is an auditor and doc controllers dream come true.. I used to hate it but have come to love it  when its used properly and my engineer / reviewers have all trained and  learnt to use it very well and we all use it at the same time  especially during covid  lockdown and working from home  it has proven itself very worthwhile .. once I use  to use a paper print , marked up by hand in reds and  blues passed around  and back to drafter  and I'd mark off completed in yellow highlighter.. and write questions  and a lot of hand writing was hard to read and these went back and  forth and were unreadable in the end then they needed scanning for audit trail..it  was horrible for administration too.. Now blue beam review studio has alleviated all that and made it all electronic and easy storage and retrieval so much better than paper  and its all typed and this text is copy pastable into microstation , reviewers can zoom in on line work and can  see who wrote what comment and what and when was actioned by drafter... it even remembers where you left off if you close the session and the reviewer can even do accurate dimension checks and add dims ( provided there is an known object like a scale bar to calibrate from can draw lines  use colours draw shapes, fills patterns  etc its like cad lite ... so much better than old red line ever was...

Redlining was  very good and the text note redline was excellent but  there was a lot of training to teach non microstation  non acad  users to use it... its still in microstation for legacy but we havent  used it since it was reissued in Microstation v8i and replaced xm redline...( 2010 ish)...?

However nowdays the Bluebeam review has  overtaken anything  Bentley  would produce  and the BB review studio is an auditor and doc controllers dream come true.. I used to hate it but have come to love it  when its used properly and my engineer / reviewers have all trained and  learnt to use it very well and we all use it at the same time  especially during covid  lockdown and working from home  it has proven itself very worthwhile .. once I use  to use a paper print , marked up by hand in reds and  blues passed around  and back to drafter  and I'd mark off completed in yellow highlighter.. and write questions  and a lot of hand writing was hard to read and these went back and  forth and were unreadable in the end then they needed scanning for audit trail..it  was horrible for administration too.. Now blue beam review studio has alleviated all that and made it all electronic and easy storage and retrieval so much better than paper  and its all typed and this text is copy pastable into microstation , reviewers can zoom in on line work and can  see who wrote what comment and what and when was actioned by drafter... it even remembers where you left off if you close the session and the reviewer can even do accurate dimension checks and add dims ( provided there is an known object like a scale bar to calibrate from can draw lines  use colours draw shapes, fills patterns  etc its like cad lite ... so much better than old red line ever was...

Any solution here should today better go through a cloud solution.
My point is that it would be nice to do a integrated 2D(-dgn.-dwg) markup through the web interface provided by ProjectWise365. The 3D part is working good. But there is a lot of work around 2D. Not only schematics, but also still the bulk of Floorplans with symbology are 2D drafting. And at the end of the day even from 3D you create multiple drawings in different "flavours" for documentation. These need also to be checked
I rather see the markups directly in microstation, do changes and then reply directly in the interface.
PDFs are just a crutch for design review. Not mucht better than paper. But ppl here still like printouts for large drawings on site. (I scan them for doing my checking) PFD is the smallest common denominator in my view.

Revu regarding to "plain" redlining (basic hints, comments, markup) has not much benefit compared to any other PDF-Editor. It can probably do a lot more. But for drawing design review? In a hybrid environment with many external parties? Not much of a lever here.
With the studio everyone needs Revu. As you say it requires training. The GUI looks even more intimidating than the old Bentley Redline. And the handling for me so far is not intuitive for what I used it.
Using Revu (Bluebeam) for counting symbols from PDFs (for tenders) seems not very reliable when it comes to the results. From what I found rotated symbols not not 90° to the "rectangle" are very often not recognized. b.Symbols equal ocularly are often not found E.G. on four pdfs it found the same symbol intermittendly and on the 4th file nearly not at all. I had to run "similar" symbols over and over always visualy checking the missing symbols and juggling with the generated markups adding stuff.
It is better than manual counting, but by far not as good as expected.

Lorys said:

have come to love it  when its used properly