[V8i SS10] How to scale symbols from reference independent of sheet scale?

I have a situation where my design file (2D layouts) has symbols that need to be the size to their actual dimensions for other disciplines to reference my design file and allow them to design knowing the footprint of my objects are actual to the symbol footprint.  For example, my ground box symbol (a rectangle with an "X" in it) will have the actual boundary dimensions of the ground box placed in the field.  But for many of my symbols they are too small to be clearly distinguishable when printing from 40 scale.  So I would need to scale my symbols up when printing from about 1.5x to 2x their original size so they are clearly and visibly distinguishable from other symbols in my drawing.  (Another example: cabinet controller foundations,)

After doing much research, using Annotation Scale for Annotation Cells appeared to be the best solution.  I created a cell library with annotation cells.  I placed those cells into my design file with the correct model setting ("Can be placed as a cell", "Can be placed as an annotation cell", and annotation turned on).  I referenced my design file into my container file.  Then referenced my container file into my sheet file and toggled on "Use Active Annotation Scale".  In the sheet model space, the Annotation Cells do indeed scale, but only according to the sheet model space annotation scale which needs to be set to 40 scale for my sheet boundary to be correct for printing.  This makes my ground box symbols 40x the size, rather large.  With "Use Active Annotation Scale" turned off, the symbols go back to the actual original size created (no scaling).

I found several statements in the MicroStation Forums that claim that a separate annotation scale can be used for each reference within a sheet model but have not found how to do this. I tried changing the reference's model space annotation scale, but this does not change the scale of the symbol within the sheet model space.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is even possible.  Please advise and thank you for your time! 

Parents
  • What about drawing them at a size that when scaled at 40 scale they appear the size you need in your sheet, and then place them in the actual file at a scale that places them at the "real world" size ?

    That way when your files are referenced by the other disciplines they are real world size, and then when you reference it at your 40 scale for the sheet, they are the size you need them to be.

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691

  • Thanks for your response, Timothy.

    I believe I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately it might not work because the other disciplines (about 30 designers) referencing my file into their design file would need special instructions to turn on the annotation for my reference and apply a specified model space annotation scale to their design file which may have adverse affects within their own design file if they happen to be using the annotation scale for their own work.

    There is also the issue of including my design file within their sheets.  They also would have their sheet model space set to a required annotation scale that sets their sheet boundary (40, 60, or 100 scale).  With annotation on, the symbols would be the larger size (same size as what I would like them to be in my sheets).  In their sheets they would prefer the actual footprint size, not the size in my sheets.  With annotation off, the symbols would be the size I created the symbols (really small) to get them to work for the sheet scale.

    Let me know if I'm not understanding.  Maybe I missed what you are suggesting.

  • ok so let me know if I am understandiung this correctly:

    1. You need annotation scale to scale up cells so they appear larger to be seen - for sheets.

    2. Other disciplines will also use annotation scale, but do not want to see your cells scaled - for sheets.

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691

  • I think you may be missing what I stated.

    Create a cell that when annotation for 40 scale is used , gives you the size you require in your sheets. Once you create this cell, place it in the needed base file that will be referenced. I assume that the base file will be drawn full size and annotation scale for this file will also be fullsize. When you place this cell, it is going to be the wrong size. Apply a scale to it when you place it to make it the real world size (not annotation, but an actual scale).

    When you attach this as a reference there is an option (use active annotation scale). For you and your sheets this option will be on. For the disciplines using your base file, they will turn this off (for your file).

    Hope this makes sense.

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691

  • That is correct.  Other disciplines will want the actual footprint size of my ground objects (ground boxes, signal foundations, controller foundations, etc.) on their sheets because it would be background to their design but still shown, which might be utility relocation, drainage, etc.  But on my signal design sheets, I will need to enlarge the symbols by a small margin (1.5x to 2x) their size so it is clear what the symbol is.

  • ok so based off what I posted and a bit more info from you - here is how I would do it:

    1. Draw the linework full size (ground boxes, etc...)

    2. Scale them by whatever you need for the 40 scale to look correct (1.5x to 2x).

    3. Now scale them again using the annotation scale that is going to be applied to them (in your case you mention 40 scale which is a multiplier of 480). So you want to scale them "down" by 480.

    4. Make the cell based off of the linework at this size.

    5. Place this cell in the base file. It is going to be the wrong size. Annotation scale in the base file is going to be full size. Since the original linework was scaled down by 480, if you applied a scale (not annotation) of 480 it will now place back at the original size, but that was scaled also - so it will still be incorrect - it is going to be 1.5x or 2x too big. So instead of 480 using 240 which will make it half the size. Does this make sense ? So now the cell is placed on the base file as it would be if it was full size.

    6. Attach this base file to your sheet file and make sure the use annotation scale option is selected and your sheets annotation scale is set to 40 - as you stated. So now the cell will be scaled by 480 and will be 2x the size your require.

    7. The disciplines will attach your base file and them they will turn off the use annotation scale option. The cells will apear as they were placed (scaled) in the base file.

    Hope this makes sense. 

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691

Reply
  • ok so based off what I posted and a bit more info from you - here is how I would do it:

    1. Draw the linework full size (ground boxes, etc...)

    2. Scale them by whatever you need for the 40 scale to look correct (1.5x to 2x).

    3. Now scale them again using the annotation scale that is going to be applied to them (in your case you mention 40 scale which is a multiplier of 480). So you want to scale them "down" by 480.

    4. Make the cell based off of the linework at this size.

    5. Place this cell in the base file. It is going to be the wrong size. Annotation scale in the base file is going to be full size. Since the original linework was scaled down by 480, if you applied a scale (not annotation) of 480 it will now place back at the original size, but that was scaled also - so it will still be incorrect - it is going to be 1.5x or 2x too big. So instead of 480 using 240 which will make it half the size. Does this make sense ? So now the cell is placed on the base file as it would be if it was full size.

    6. Attach this base file to your sheet file and make sure the use annotation scale option is selected and your sheets annotation scale is set to 40 - as you stated. So now the cell will be scaled by 480 and will be 2x the size your require.

    7. The disciplines will attach your base file and them they will turn off the use annotation scale option. The cells will apear as they were placed (scaled) in the base file.

    Hope this makes sense. 

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691

Children
  • Well, I gave it a shot.  First off, I want to state that I cannot apply reference settings before I attach it.  I have to attach it, then apply the "Use active annotation scale" setting (it might be the way ProjectWise is setup).  When I first attach the file the default setting is applied with annotation scale off.  Viewing the symbol at this point shows the scaled up to actual size.  This is what you describe in Step 7 and is what we want for other disciplines.

    It seems that when I turn on the "Use active annotation scale" for the reference, it takes whatever is shown (scaled up actual size instead of the original cell size) and applies an overall 40 scale (40x) making it really large once again.

    By the way, I appreciate your patience in working with me.

  • without having to write some sort of special VBA to do this, another way would be to create two cells. One full size and one at the scale you want (IE:2X). Place the full size cell as you normally would and it all functions as needed in the base file and the disciplines. No annotation. Then place the scaled cell on top of the full size cell, but on another level. In the disciplines case they would leave the full size cells' level turned on and the scaled one turned off. In your case you would do the opposite. Turning off the full size cells' level and leaving the scaled one on. Not using annotation at all for these particular cells.

    Going forward to Connect edition you can use this same setup, but create display rules. For the disciplines case the diplay rule would not display the scaled cell, and in your case, your display rule would not display the full size cell.

    Timothy Hickman

    CADD Manager | CADD Department

    timothy.hickman@colliersengineering.com

    Main: 877 627 3772| 

    1000 Waterview Drive Suite 201 | Hamilton, New Jersey 08691