Hello,
I think this is a very general question, I tried searching the forum for similar threads but couldn't find any. Let me try to phrase the question:
Our clients request all As Built documentation to be delivered in PDF and DWG. They won't accept DGN because Microstation / Openbuildings Designer / ProStructures (the softwares we use at our company) are simply very little known or used in our region. So that means I have to convert all sheets to DWG.
Unfortunately though, I can't find a good setting to create well structured DWG file. What I would like to achieve is a single DWG file for each sheet where the geometry, annotations, ... from the (DGN) drawing models are placed in the model space and the layout contains viewports. The way it would be if I created the drawing in AutoCAD for example. Other software like Revit and Tekla Structures do this in a good way, in my opinion.
The best I can achieve from Bentley products, without having to use XREF to external files, is to use the option to "merge" references. But this means that all geometry will be drawn in the layout/paperspace of the DWG file and model space will remain blank. This is unacceptable.
I can imagine one of the difficulties is that DWG only supports a single "Model space", which would correspond to the design/drawing models in a DGN file. And one sheet usually references multiple of those models.
The other softwares I named above handle this by placing all the geometry side-by-side in the model view, then creating the relevant Viewports in the layout. A much more elegant solution, meaning mostly that one can simply measure in the model space without worrying about scale etc.
As it happens I just got a question from one of my colleagues related to this exact problem, while I was typing this post. So I'm 100% certain that we are not the only people struggling with this, there must be others, architects, ... who have the same issue.
Is there a solution for this? Or would it require a big amount of rework for the DWG exporter to create such functionality?
Have you checked out this Bentley Learn thread? https://learn.bentley.com/app/Public/ViewLearningPathDetails?lpId=110799 The section titled Working in a DWG Workmode contains a 100+ page PDF guide worth scanning through - explaining how MS/ORD Named Boundaries tool is unavailable (among other tools) to constrain tool usage to achieve the most compatible result and proceeds to walk through roughly a dozen best-practices. I'd be very surprised to see it as a perfect solution knowing a long history of conversion issues between the two. The hope in sharing this is that it will help isolate which best practices can be applied to help reduce the frustration.
Bentley Accredited Road Designer | Bentley Accredited Road Modeler
Thank you Shawn for your reply!
If I'm not mistaken the DWG Workmode is all about editing DWG files with Bentley tools (MS/ORD/OBD/...)? But that's not what I am after. The restriction for all kind of tools is not something I want to live with during our design work.
The point is that we want to work in DGN mode, to have all functionality the software has to offer. Then ONLY for export we want to go to DWG and create usable output including both model space and paper space. I'll repeat again, other tools like Revit, Tekla, ... do the same thing. Those tools don't have a DWG workmode, they cannot modify existing DWG files. They can only generate new ones.
If your goal is to put your sheet into modelspace, you may try following steps:
1) Activate your sheet model from which you intend to recompose the drawing
2) Set MS_DWG_SINGLESHEET_AS_MODELSPACE=1 to tell MicroStation to map your sheet to modelspace, as supposed to a paperspace, when the source has no design model
3) In DWG SaveAs Options select a view you like
4) Toggle Advanced->Create Separate Files for Sheets on
Save your DGN as DWG into a clean folder, find a file created from your sheet. This file should have geometry in the modelspace.
I think the real question is how convert a DGN which has a Design Model, Drawing Models, and associated sheet models to some sort of DWG that retains the association between the drawing model and the sheet model. Since DWG doesn't have sheet models, those get saved off as separate DWG files, but they don't include the sheets - those stay as layouts in the "original" DWG.
Case in Point. OpenRoads Cross Section sheets. There is a Design model, which has all of the relevant design drawings referenced, through which the section views will be cut/projected. Named Boundaries generate Drawing models, which contain the section view through the Design Model, which are referenced into Sheet models. The sheet models are directly dependent on the Drawing models, not the Design model.
There is this discussion thread about ORD DWG conversion which might have information useful to other verticals.
What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?) so that the Drawing Model becomes the Modelspace, and the associated sheet becomes the Paperspace.
Putting sheets into Modelspace isn't always useful, as often references have been scaled up or down to fit properly on the sheet border, which makes them entirely the wrong size for the real world. Nice to know how to do it! But I can't see myself using it often.
MaryB
Power GeoPak 08.11.09.918Power InRoads 08.11.09.918OpenRoads Designer 2021 R2
MaryB said:I think the real question is how convert a DGN which has a Design Model, Drawing Models, and associated sheet models to some sort of DWG that retains the association between the drawing model and the sheet model.
MaryB said:What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?) so that the Drawing Model becomes the Modelspace, and the associated sheet becomes the Paperspace.
Exactly, well phrased! I'd go for the merging (not Xref, it's always a hassle in my experience when sharing with external people).
MaryB said:Putting sheets into Modelspace isn't always useful, as often references have been scaled up or down to fit properly on the sheet border, which makes them entirely the wrong size for the real world. Nice to know how to do it! But I can't see myself using it often.
I totally agree, but you might be surprised how many drafters (in Belgium) work this way. It can get very confusing when using the "measure" tool on a detail that's on a different scale from the main drawing. Huge mistakes can be made...
Actually that's what I like so much about the DGN approach with Model => Drawing => Sheet. In AutoCAD there is always the difficulty where to put annotations and dimensions. In theory it should be done in the paperspace, but it has certain disadvantages. Using the "Drawing" in DGN as an intermediate step is really a good solution! One that is very similar also to Revit's 2D views as well.
Johan De Cock said:What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?)
Not sure if this will help, but 17.1 introduced a Merge Internal Reference option. If I understand the vid properly, this merges any internal Model files into the Sheet model.
Maybe the same tool can be used to merge any clipped, scaled etc References into the Drawing Model; and the new Drawing model can then be referenced in the Sheet model before exporting to DWG?
what I have done in the past is use the export to DGN with merge refs option to a new folder so I keep originals then I open one of these new DGNs with the merged xref and then export that to another new folder batch process with export to DWG and this works for me when i check in dwg I have a model space and a paperspace which has the layout xrefed through the model space to the view port .. I have had to do this for as builts to DoT Rail many times in v8i and it works albeit have to do 2 times
Lorys
Started msnt work 1990 - Retired Nov 2022 ( oh boy am I old )
But was long time user V8iss10 (8.11.09.919) dabbler CE update 16 (10.16.00.80)
MicroStation user since 1990 Melbourne Australia.click link to PM me
Hi Lorys,
Thank you for the valuable tip! It works perfectly for the situation when there is 1 drawing model and 1 sheet model.
However I also have quite a few sheets where there is more than 1 drawing model linked (floor plan + some details, ...). I tried the same workflow for one of those files and that doesn't work, unfortunately. Did you have that situation as well? How did you solve that?
If there is more than one drawing model, you may have to merge all the relevant drawing models into one and repath the detail references to that conglomerate model to get what you want. Extra work, not very elegant - make sure you turn OFF the model setting for "Propagate Annotation Scale" before merging! But it's probably the closest you're going to get.
I have AutoCAD sheets where I have more than one detail to the sheet. I just have to draw them all into Modelspace, each off in their own area so they can be placed into a viewport at whatever the correct scale is for each detail. It's a pain, but it works. That's the sort of result you would end with, I think.
MaryB said:I have AutoCAD sheets where I have more than one detail to the sheet. I just have to draw them all into Modelspace, each off in their own area so they can be placed into a viewport at whatever the correct scale is for each detail.
That's the 'AutoCAD' way indeed, as also Gerd explained above he uses as workflow even in Microstation. As long as it's only 2D design, it can work. But in my opinion a waste of MS potential.
MaryB said:If there is more than one drawing model, you may have to merge all the relevant drawing models into one and repath the detail references to that conglomerate model to get what you want.
It's a good suggestion. Something to think about for my next projects, when I can set it all up like that from the start. Just wondering what it will do to the callouts? Right now a callout "knows" on which sheet number it has been placed. I think in that workflow it won't anymore, because it will be placed on a 2D drawing (or design) model and a new Saved View will be created from there.
Johan De Cock said:in my opinion a waste of MS potential
True. But it appears that you can only define it at the top of the foodchain (Owner/Operator)
In my line of work (quite down in the foodchain) we get a lot of different files from other crafts (for coordination) - using all kinds of applications. Often dwg exports, e.g.flattened Revit, Archicad, HVAC apps.... Often that comes down to a mix of 2D and 3D - it is always getting "interesting" as you can imagine.
If the client (OO) does not stipulate the use of CAD/BIM everything is all over the place.