[CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Fri, 03 Feb 2023 08:27:54 GMT

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751747"]Revit is an AutoDesk product - the same people who make AutoCAD. It makes sense to me that two AutoDesk packages can communicate and translate easily. It's the same company.[/quote]

I'm not sure how much that matters because Revit and AutoCAD are two completely different products. There is no link between them like there is between Microstation and it's verticals. But let's not argue on that since it's not really relevant here.

The same can't be said from Tekla, and they do it very similar to Revit.

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751747"]but we are kind of left out to dry if we need to share our information in DWG format.[/quote]

The way I see it, DWG exchange should be very similar to IFC exchange. Of course DWG isn't an "open" format like IFC but it is so wide-spread that in reality the workflow can be very similar.

In my opinion it should not matter which software is used to get to the same result. Whatever the "internal" workflow inside a software to get to a certain result (in this case a sheet containing geometry, dimensions, annotations, ...), it should be possible to export (to DWG) as a deliverable with a similar result.

So far my opinion of course. I think the most important things have been said somewhere above here so I'll not push it any further in next posts. If and when Bentley is interested they'll find the info, or they can contact me directly to learn more

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

MaryB — Thu, 02 Feb 2023 20:41:00 GMT

Revit is an AutoDesk product - the same people who make AutoCAD. It makes sense to me that two AutoDesk packages can communicate and translate easily. It's the same company.

You're right that the work process of Bentley Verticals isn't designed to convert to other drawing formats. It's designed to be a one-shop solution. The introduction of the drawing models necessary for sections, resymbolization, etc. are technology that just can't be easily converted to other formats. I appreciate the advanced capability, but we are kind of left out to dry if we need to share our information in DWG format.

I haven't tried to work in ORD in DWGmode, and I probably won't for some time, but I fully expect to run into the same issues.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Thu, 02 Feb 2023 20:16:11 GMT

[quote userid="5901" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751647"]True. But it appears that you can only define it at the top of the foodchain (Owner/Operator)[/quote][quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751739"]Much of the potential of MicroStation isn't possible in DWG[/quote]

I don't see why. As stated earlier, Revit and Tekla also provide DWG export. Both platforms work even more differently from AutoCAD compared to Microstation, yet they manage to provide DWG's that are - in my opinion - better DWG files.

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751739"]you may just need to bite the bullet and work in DWG workmode.[/quote]

I don't even know if that is possible in Openbuildings Designer and ProStructures. I expect not since both platforms rely on the use of drawing models for re-symbolization of geometry.

I'd even go so far as to state that the fact that MS has a DWG workmode makes it worse for DWG output compared to the competitors that don't. It seems like the "Export" DWG has the same engine as the "Save as" DWG. For "Save As" it makes sense to convert as much as possible all kinds of settings and editable material.

For me in an "Export" workflow, it really doesn't matter. All geometry may be dropped to simple lines/shapes. All text may be dropped to plane text (losing all tags, item types, ...), ... Dimensions must remain dimensions, but I don't think that's the most difficult element.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

MaryB — Thu, 02 Feb 2023 19:58:11 GMT

Since you are stuck providing AutoCAD deliverables, you are also stuck with the limitations of DWG format. Much of the potential of MicroStation isn't possible in DWG. It's just NOT; DWG can't do it. If you know going in, you may just need to bite the bullet and work in DWG workmode. I know that it is very limiting, but it also guarantees that your drawings convert to AutoCAD relatively painlessly.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

mlm — Thu, 02 Feb 2023 10:14:27 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751437"]in my opinion a waste of MS potential[/quote]

True. But it appears that you can only define it at the top of the foodchain (Owner/Operator)

In my line of work (quite down in the foodchain) we get a lot of different files from other crafts (for coordination) - using all kinds of applications. Often dwg exports, e.g.flattened Revit, Archicad, HVAC apps.... Often that comes down to a mix of 2D and 3D - it is always getting "interesting" as you can imagine.

If the client (OO) does not stipulate the use of CAD/BIM everything is all over the place.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Reginald Wallace — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 20:12:09 GMT

Hi Johan,

Thank you for doing this!

Regards,

Regie

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 07:47:05 GMT

Since there has been quite a bit of response on this topic, and a lot of views, I created this MS Idea: DWG Export - Merge drawing models to model | MicroStation Ideas Portal (aha.io)

For those who agree this would be useful addition, please vote

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 07:31:18 GMT

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751334"]I have AutoCAD sheets where I have more than one detail to the sheet. I just have to draw them all into Modelspace, each off in their own area so they can be placed into a viewport at whatever the correct scale is for each detail. [/quote]

That's the 'AutoCAD' way indeed, as also Gerd explained above he uses as workflow even in Microstation. As long as it's only 2D design, it can work. But in my opinion a waste of MS potential.

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751334"]If there is more than one drawing model, you may have to merge all the relevant drawing models into one and repath the detail references to that conglomerate model to get what you want. [/quote]

It's a good suggestion. Something to think about for my next projects, when I can set it all up like that from the start. Just wondering what it will do to the callouts? Right now a callout "knows" on which sheet number it has been placed. I think in that workflow it won't anymore, because it will be placed on a 2D drawing (or design) model and a new Saved View will be created from there.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

MaryB — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:49:05 GMT

If there is more than one drawing model, you may have to merge all the relevant drawing models into one and repath the detail references to that conglomerate model to get what you want. Extra work, not very elegant - make sure you turn OFF the model setting for "Propagate Annotation Scale" before merging! But it's probably the closest you're going to get.

I have AutoCAD sheets where I have more than one detail to the sheet. I just have to draw them all into Modelspace, each off in their own area so they can be placed into a viewport at whatever the correct scale is for each detail. It's a pain, but it works. That's the sort of result you would end with, I think.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:09:47 GMT

[quote userid="5901" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751291"] in AutoCAD you can do 3D. How are you annotating there? Some do it in the model, others in the sheet or a combo of both, (?) getting messier by the hour.[/quote]

That's exactly what I like about the Drawing Models in Microstation / OBD. Similar to the 2D views in Revit.

Never liked working in 3D in AutoCAD either.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

mlm — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:33:07 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751284"]there is any other choice when working in 3D[/quote]

Well, as much as I like it, I guess there are other opinions around... in AutoCAD you can do 3D. How are you annotating there? Some do it in the model, others in the sheet or a combo of both, (?) getting messier by the hour..

In the "real world" aka. when you get design from different sources/applikation there are always different ways things are handled. And each designer is having another way to get things done....at least in my bubble...

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:07:31 GMT

Thanks!

[quote userid="5901" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751283"]I would in full 3D construction probably.[/quote]

I don't think there is any other choice when working in 3D, ergo my question/problem

[quote userid="5901" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751283"]For delivering DWGs it is probably not helpful though.[/quote]

Since the DWG in my work is but an "extract" of the model, albeit an important one, I don't have much of a choice.

Thanks again for participating in the discussion!

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

mlm — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:02:54 GMT

In this "simple" line of work not, right.

I would in full 3D construction probably. To use microStations et.al. potential in full.

It rather always depends what the deliverables are. For delivering DWGs it is probably not helpful though.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 09:13:40 GMT

Hi Gerd,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. So for confirmation, you are not using "Drawing" models in MS? Only design model and sheet model?

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

mlm — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:54:19 GMT

Hi Johan,

that is correct. I basically see no difference between mS and AC in that respect.

We have mostly a file per floor. We get architectureal plans and reference them. Basically to get in our electrical crafts requrements for the onsite works (still mostly 2D, sometimes a mix e.g. when it comes to raceways etc.)

In the electrical craft we need to produce separate plans (deliverbles depending on the customrer are either dgns or dwgs plus pdfs) for each sub craft like eletrical installations, lighting, network installation, security, alarm and more.

Depending on the complexity of the project we have only one file per floor with all crafts. Then we have Sheets (Viewports) with the particular levels switched on. (When the complexity is too high it may be better to have be separeate files for e.g. high voltage, low voltage and communication installations....)

In any case it should be straigtforward to generate dwgs from dgns. (given the devils in the detais of the formats)

If the customer would want to have separate dwgs for each drawing that should be probably defined at the start of the project(?) You can do that but you get a lot of files. To separate that out later you would need to do copies and delete what you don't need for the specific drawing.

I am thinking that it is worth - if you have a lot of files - you probably can achieve that through scripts that automate the repetitive steps.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:46:01 GMT

[quote userid="5901" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/751111"]As DWGs allow a file with one model and several Sheets I am do not have to deal with it. And I get DWGs in the same fashion as well.[/quote]

Hi Gerd, thanks for your reaction!

Can you very briefly describe your workflow with DGN files: 3D/2D model => Drawing => Sheet all in one file or ...? From how I understand your description it looks like you make multiple sheets based on the same model, each with a Saved view placed directly on the sheet? That would be a very similar way of working compared to AutoCAD. In such case I can see how that would work in DWG export.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

mlm — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:20:01 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/749690"]Or don't you have to deal with it[/quote]

As DWGs allow a file with one model and several Sheets I am do not have to deal with it. And I get DWGs in the same fashion as well.

If I would need separate files for each sheet I'd use the Filter-Tab>Models in the SaveAs-Options and only choose the one of the Sheets plus the Model. That is a manual step for each file. (Have not checked if scripting is applicable though)

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:39:50 GMT

Hi Lorys,

Thank you for the valuable tip! It works perfectly for the situation when there is 1 drawing model and 1 sheet model.

However I also have quite a few sheets where there is more than 1 drawing model linked (floor plan + some details, ...). I tried the same workflow for one of those files and that doesn't work, unfortunately. Did you have that situation as well? How did you solve that?

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Lorys — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 05:44:51 GMT

what I have done in the past is use the export to DGN with merge refs option to a new folder so I keep originals then I open one of these new DGNs with the merged xref and then export that to another new folder batch process with export to DWG and this works for me when i check in dwg I have a model space and a paperspace which has the layout xrefed through the model space to the view port .. I have had to do this for as builts to DoT Rail many times in v8i and it works albeit have to do 2 times

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

dominic SEAH — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:29:47 GMT

[quote userid="1144012" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/750267"]What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?) [/quote]

Not sure if this will help, but 17.1 introduced a Merge Internal Reference option. If I understand the vid properly, this merges any internal Model files into the Sheet model.

Maybe the same tool can be used to merge any clipped, scaled etc References into the Drawing Model; and the new Drawing model can then be referenced in the Sheet model before exporting to DWG?

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:18:44 GMT

Thanks Dominic! I'll contact them to find out what their DGN to DWG converter does different compared to the built-in one from Bentley.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Johan De Cock — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:17:53 GMT

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/750211"]I think the real question is how convert a DGN which has a Design Model, Drawing Models, and associated sheet models to some sort of DWG that retains the association between the drawing model and the sheet model.[/quote][quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/750211"]What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?) so that the Drawing Model becomes the Modelspace, and the associated sheet becomes the Paperspace.[/quote]

Exactly, well phrased! I'd go for the merging (not Xref, it's always a hassle in my experience when sharing with external people).

[quote userid="2436" url="~/products/microstation/f/microstation-forum/240492/ce-u17-converting-sheets-to-dwg/750211"]Putting sheets into Modelspace isn't always useful, as often references have been scaled up or down to fit properly on the sheet border, which makes them entirely the wrong size for the real world. Nice to know how to do it! But I can't see myself using it often.[/quote]

I totally agree, but you might be surprised how many drafters (in Belgium) work this way. It can get very confusing when using the "measure" tool on a detail that's on a different scale from the main drawing. Huge mistakes can be made...

Actually that's what I like so much about the DGN approach with Model => Drawing => Sheet. In AutoCAD there is always the difficulty where to put annotations and dimensions. In theory it should be done in the paperspace, but it has certain disadvantages. Using the "Drawing" in DGN as an intermediate step is really a good solution! One that is very similar also to Revit's 2D views as well.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

MaryB — Fri, 20 Jan 2023 22:46:02 GMT

I think the real question is how convert a DGN which has a Design Model, Drawing Models, and associated sheet models to some sort of DWG that retains the association between the drawing model and the sheet model. Since DWG doesn't have sheet models, those get saved off as separate DWG files, but they don't include the sheets - those stay as layouts in the "original" DWG.

Case in Point. OpenRoads Cross Section sheets. There is a Design model, which has all of the relevant design drawings referenced, through which the section views will be cut/projected. Named Boundaries generate Drawing models, which contain the section view through the Design Model, which are referenced into Sheet models. The sheet models are directly dependent on the Drawing models, not the Design model.

There is this discussion thread about ORD DWG conversion which might have information useful to other verticals.

What I suspect Johan may be looking for would be a way to translate the file so that whatever is referenced into the Drawing Model is merged in (or maybe kept as an Xref?) so that the Drawing Model becomes the Modelspace, and the associated sheet becomes the Paperspace.

Putting sheets into Modelspace isn't always useful, as often references have been scaled up or down to fit properly on the sheet border, which makes them entirely the wrong size for the real world. Nice to know how to do it! But I can't see myself using it often.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

Don H. Fu — Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:37:46 GMT

If your goal is to put your sheet into modelspace, you may try following steps:

1) Activate your sheet model from which you intend to recompose the drawing

2) Set MS_DWG_SINGLESHEET_AS_MODELSPACE=1 to tell MicroStation to map your sheet to modelspace, as supposed to a paperspace, when the source has no design model

3) In DWG SaveAs Options select a view you like

4) Toggle Advanced->Create Separate Files for Sheets on

Save your DGN as DWG into a clean folder, find a file created from your sheet. This file should have geometry in the modelspace.

RE: [CE U17] Converting sheets to DWG

dominic SEAH — Fri, 20 Jan 2023 06:17:36 GMT

Maybe need to use CVE's for some or all of the views?

It would be interesting if Axiom could help. Sounds like this would be common problem.