Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Budlite — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 02:16:14 GMT

I'll re-phrase....shareable is referring to the data. Many programs can read and extract data from databases. And yes the process is a query. Few programs can read a dgnlib. Those that can are probably a CADD program also. The real push in the future will be to share more and more data. A dgnlib does not easily lend itself to that. A CSV file is nothing more than output as a delimited text file. It can be read by many programs but it is an intermediate step that could be bypassed. Bentley should be moving more towards sharing of data.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Jon Summers — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 21:29:03 GMT

[quote user="Budlite"]The things stored in dgn files would be better suited to be stored in a file meant for storage of information and shareable[/quote]

But that's the purpose of a DGNLib: it stores information and it is shareable.

The problems with DGNLibs, voiced here and elsewhere, are that they are opaque and consequently hard to manage.

[quote user="Budlite"]That would be a database[/quote]

Relational databases provide the Structured Query Language (SQL) so you can interrogate them. XML provides XQuery and XPath. CSV has nothing except the human eyeball. There is no query language for a DGNLib, which is why it is opaque: even if you know the question, there's no way to ask.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Thomas Voghera — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 21:19:12 GMT

Budlite

Sure, anything that reveals what's inside and is easily available.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Budlite — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 18:00:42 GMT

I somewhat agree with Thomas that basically dgnlib files is the wrong direction. I don't agree with simple csv files though. Personally all the things stored in dgn files would be better suited to be stored in a file meant for storage of information and shareable. That would be a database file.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Marc Thomas — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 16:34:17 GMT

Try this and let me know if it helps make things clearer (althought it will prompt other questions I'm sure!): 101 - DGNLIB (Design File Libraries)

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

fostertom — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 08:37:51 GMT

thanks Lorys - am getting there slowly, just like to grumble along the way.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Lorys — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 08:00:23 GMT

I hate to defend the help ... but every discipline usage is going to different .. but again training courses are the only way..

Have you looked at Bentley learn free tutorials there was a pretty good intro last time I looked for my guys at work...

I wrote pretty good one myself in one of the control alt delete issues a long while back under symbology and overrides ...

from help search

"Sharing Level Definitions",

"Level Manager dialog "

" Working with Level Libraries "

"Levels"

I read these and even print out make my own manuals and resourses..

Between these and what I have gleaned everywhere else we have a very easy robust system not very easy in acad..

If you still cant work it out skype me some time and Ill talk and show you with swap screens function in skype is pretty good...

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

fostertom — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:03:42 GMT

Thanks Lorys, so maybe we still have Keith Little for dgnlibs - but far from up to date I think, esp how are they applied to make BD work - a v different kettle of fish.

The knowledge acquisition ways you list are fine, but absolutely no excuse for absence of really good write-up in Help, which should give guidance on use in typical scenarios, if it's to be worthy of name 'Help'. Otherwise, don't bother (well, they don't).

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

DavidG — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:57:39 GMT

John, The only one I see is one and it is flagged Comming Soon. Everything else is Under Review. Not Planned is another option. I'm guessing out of 200 there are a few in there you have no plan of addressing in this release.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Lorys — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:02:57 GMT

Foster Tom

From our dear Friend Keith Little's ( gone to be with God now) book survivors guide to v8 pages 207 through to 236 then the XM addendum also has a lot to say on dgnlibs. And strangely enough the Help file and AskInga and lots of posts here!

Bentley like all software companies want you to go and PAY for Training and upskilling next versions..

I have had very generous employers in the past who have allowed me to attend these and also bentley Learn site has been a boon .. and now we have the SIGS ...which I encourage you to attend your/ I'm always learning something new about msnt... plus I'm a bit of a mstn nerd! it helps...

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

fostertom — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:41:36 GMT

[quote user="Lorys"]

dgn libs are awesome and easy to find

you just have to be clever what you name them and where you put them then make sure the work space config knows where they are

[/quote]That's what we would like to believe, and so it should be.

But where is it explained in any way that's designed to be effectively communicative, rather than some geeky circular-referential illiteracy, which you can see is kinda pedantically true only after you already understand it?

How did you come to understand all this? not from any publicly available documentation, I bet, but incrementally from your existing long experience in the Bentley walled garden and/or from long computer-immersion generally.

Bentley keeps introducing things but never bothers to explain them, confident that their only 'audience' that matters is old-hand individuals and corporates' IT departments.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Lorys — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 09:51:58 GMT

Thomas I have to disagree dgn libs are awesome and easy to find

you just have to be clever what you name them and where you put them then make sure the work space config knows where they are ...

eg for levels

We have drive\xxx\mstn\stds\levels

in that we have

Archi.dgnlib

Survey.dgnlib

Services.dgnlib etc

under the standards folder I also have another folder for text and dim styles dgnlibs.

Another for tool bars custom for differenet disciplines I have different interface.dgnlibs applied when you use specific work spaces...

So Mr's Bentley dont go changing dgnlibs now they are awsome once you learn how they work..

BTw you can even make a macro or F key to load specific dgn libs...

but for levels I use the level manger import/attach levels and choose the dgnlib of choice for the discipline name needed....

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

John Frampton — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 15:26:04 GMT

[quote user="DavidG"]Well to be quite frank there are over 200 ideas in the ideas section and we have seen no indication that any of them have even been reviewed, let alone considered. You guys want feed back from users but we are getting little feed back about the ideas we post. Personally I'm starting to feel like it was a waste of my time writing them up.[/quote]

David,

We listen and we review the ideas weekly if not more often. If you notice one has been marked complete. Currently there isn't a way to mark an Idea to anything other than Under review, Approved, or Complete and this is one of the reasons it is in the EAP section as this is also in a beta try process. We have a process which is be set up which will move an item into development from the Ideas section but again this is in development. We also have a criteria with which an item will be moved on but again this is a developing process. Once we have the process refined we will move Ideas out into the public communities.

Thanks,

John

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

John Frampton — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 15:09:48 GMT

Hi Barry,

Though this works for some items and in some cases it does not work for anything that has a dependency on another item. For instance a Dimension style may use a text style. Once this occurs you have a copy of your text style in the Dimension style DGNlib. If you make a change to what is believed to be your source of truth (text_styles.dgnlib) it wont be seen by your dgns as when we process the variable MS_DGNliblist we take the first instance of the text style we find and that would come from the file dimensions.dgnlib.

Now the first thing people will say and has been said in this thread is to just make a variable for each of the types of thing to be found, for instance MS_DGNliblist_TextStyle. Well that doesn't work either. Take the scenario above. If you use the dimension style before the text style then the text style from the dimension style file is brought into the active dgn. Thus you are using the wrong definition.

The best solution is to have things that are cross dependent placed in one file. In your case the first 3 things should be in one file. I go as far as to say that MS_DGNLibList should include the the variables MS_CELLLiblist and MS_Seedfiles. This way your management dialogs get a true picture of all the content that is out there that may be appearing in your files.

HTH,

John

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

DavidG — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 14:54:50 GMT

Tim,

You can't tell from the standard pick lists where they come from. Internal, external, rsc. Theres no way to tell.

Theres also no way to filter. Only levels from this file. Only Styles from this file. Things start creeping in from all over and it takes an inordinate amount of time to sort it out.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Tim Hickman — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 12:23:18 GMT

I am not sure I follow what is being asked here….

In an active file that has:

Levels from a DGNLIB

Textstyles from a DGNLIB

DimensionStyles from a DGNLIB

LineStyles

Etc,,,

These can all be found where they are coming from.

If the item is bold in the list , it is a local item

There is a column in level manager that tells you where the level exists

If you hover over some items, these state where they exist

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Thomas Voghera — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 21:08:41 GMT

Marc

Unfortunately I don't seem to make myself understood here.

See comment earlier in this thread.

I test case would perhaps be if I name my dgnlbs in Swedish - and you were tasked to understand what was stored in each dgnlib.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

DavidG — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:02:12 GMT

Well to be quite frank there are over 200 ideas in the ideas section and we have seen no indication that any of them have even been reviewed, let alone considered. You guys want feed back from users but we are getting little feed back about the ideas we post. Personally I'm starting to feel like it was a waste of my time writing them up.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Marc Thomas — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 12:00:43 GMT

Hi Thomas,

As suggested below creating separate dgnlibs for the various resources is a good method for management.

A recommended workflow is to use the CSV as the source for the levels.dgnlib, the CSV content can then be manipulated using Excel tools (as you are obviously fully aware).

Changes can be imported into the levels.dgnlib individually, or all levels can be imported into an empty dgnlib to ensure an exact match to the source CSV.

Whilst adding a step, this does have the advantage that the CSV is not unintentionally modified during daily operations.

RE: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Marc Thomas — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 11:48:51 GMT

All,

There are quite a few suggestions in this thread.

May I suggest that you review the comments made here and add them to the Ideas section in the MicroStation EAP1 Forum that I know several (if not all of you) contribute to.

Re: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

fostertom — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:53:44 GMT

[quote user="Lorys"]Have a look at Keith Little's book "survivors guide " see section on levels and DGN libs thats how I learnt about dgnlibs...[/quote]As you said before, and I scoured all KL's books but cd find nothing on dgnlibs - if wrong, grateful if you could point out where?

Re: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Thomas Voghera — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 02:29:12 GMT

Barry

in perfect world and if you remember exactly what you thought two years ago and never did anything wrong that might be a system.

But i have many more things to think of than where I stored some task two years ago. So at each point in time when I need this information I should be able to find out by the UI.

Text and dimstyles you can, if you happen to find out. But not levels.and other things.

Re: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

DavidG — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:49:22 GMT

Project explorer has Links Tab and File tab. The File tab is pretty useful. Perhaps adding DGNLIB tab that would show all DGNlibs - with paths for the current file/design session. Then able to expand/browse them like you can files/models.

Re: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Eric Milberger — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:08:15 GMT

I will aggree about the garbage already in or "creeping" into a dgnlib. However once I've cleaned them all I've now gotten sued to them and like them. and I am a grumply soul. It would just liek to see some better tools to make it feel not so much like programming all the time.

Re: Level libraries in csv or xls instead of dgnlib

Lorys — Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:07:16 GMT

Hi Tom,

[quote user="fostertom"]

Why can't there just be a really simple way to view in (optional, configurable level of) detail the contents of things like dgnlibs, seeds, even datasets? Doesn't have to be put into xml, csv or xls, just a configurable viewing tool, which can stay open as a window to refer to (or print out). Bit like ConfigExplorer. Incl what ways the seed (and dgnlib?) has been over-ruled in the current (or any selectable) dgn. Incl a bit of history, per item, of updating in either direction.

[/quote]

but there is export yours standard dgnlib file (... being stand means it should not change without you knowing about it...) to CSV and open with excel or print to a book for desk reference..

or else just open the dgn lib itself read only with ustn ..

Lorys

Have a look at Keith Little's book "survivors guide " see section on levels and DGN libs thats how I learnt about dgnlibs...