Civil Geometry Fillet between Arcs - wrong clothoid R value

Hi Adam! Are you using the Arc Between Arcs command to layout that compound curve geometry? I'm not seeing what you describe.

Mark

Any tool to insert arc-spiral-arc fillet. Forget about exporting to alg and checking horizontal integrity for now. Just chcek civil geometry with Element Properties tool. I ve just started to investigate that issue when spotted errors (radii missmatch) in check-integrity tool for my alg exported from Civil Geometry.

I tested few geometry setups:

LINE spiral-arc(R1)-spiral ARC(R2) - in this case I used Spiral-Arc-Spiral between Arca an any Element tool. Second spiral should have starting radius equal to R1 and end radius equal to R2 but end radius is equal 0.00.

ARC(R1) spiral-arc(R2)-spiral ARC(R3) - accomplished with Ac between elements tool. First spiral should have starting radius=R1, end radius=R2 but I get starting radius=0.00, end radius=R2. The same happens to second spiral.

You can see that on a screenshot I attached to my initial post. When I annotate stationing with Tranistion Radius toggled on I can clearly see that spirals will not make transition from R1 to R2.

Moreover. I did another test. I build geometry element by element: I added to a primary arc R1 I added spiral of given length and End Radius R2, then I added an arc R2 to the spiral and then another spiral between Arc R2 and my las arc R3.  I was hoping to get the same geometry as by using Spiral-ArcSpiral betwenn arc R1 and aec R2 but I did not. 

I am at the dead end with that. It is possible I made a mistake in my way of thinking about geometry, but where?

I am working with PowerInroads 08.11.09.722

thanks.

Adam, I see it now ...and you are correct. It finally jumped out at me when I did a horizontal geometry report. The Spiral is not correctly reporting the radius on the Entrance Radius on the entry spiral, or the Exit Radius on the exit spiral when that curve set is between two curves. It doesn't seem to be recognizing that it's actually between two curves and hence failing to report on the entry and exit curves of that entire curve set. That reporting would make sense if it were between two tangents. I'm also on 722.

It is not only about reports, it is about Element Properties/Info and I am afraid it is about phisical geometry as well. Try to annotate transition radius on a spiral between two arcs... it goes from R1 to ... infinity and overpassing R2 to finaly end with 0.00 (I assume it stands for infinity here...)

Can anyone from Bentley confirm this tool is working correctly? is it only about reporting or the geometry is affected as well? If yes it ...

Adam, just a bit more information. I understand that it's not just showing up in the reporting. I'm also seeing it in the Element Information, but I don't believe that the physical geometry is incorrect. There is nothing that I noticed to indicate this. I laid this out in SS3 and took it back to SS2 and the geometry data was identical. SS2 also did not identify those adjacent curve radii. Then I laid the same geometry out in SS2 and it also failed to indicate the radii of the adjacent curves. So, after this, I'm gambling that it's just a reporting anomaly, and not an actual geometric error, and was actually carried forward from SS2. One of the Bentley folks should be able to chime in and square this away. Oh, and I agree that '0' probably means infinity here similar to other places within the software.

And lastly, what do you mean by this? "When I annotate stationing with Transition Radius toggled on I can clearly see that spirals will not make transition from R1 to R2."

What makes me think it may be phisical geometry issue is Element Info. I even dropped Civil Geometry to microstation elements and checked native microstation spiral element - there is a 0.00 value at the end of spiral which is adjacent to an arc.

Unknown said:

And lastly, what do you mean by this? "When I annotate stationing with Transition Radius toggled on I can clearly see that spirals will not make transition from R1 to R2."

In Inroads menu go to Geometry>View Geometry>Stationing and there is a tab called Transition Radii   it will annotate how R value is changed along the spiral. I use that a lot when choosing ramp locations.

I did more tests: Inroads Geometry tool: free-arc-between elements give different solution than Civil Geometry Spiral-Arc-spiral between elements tool. With CG I get Radii mis-matched info when checking integrity and with Inroads tools everything is just fine.

Please find dgn and alg attached. Initial elements are line and arc R=1970. I added free arc with spirals with Inroads tool (A=1600, R=7000, A=660) then I did the same with Civil Geometry tool (Spiral-Arc-Spiral). as e result I got two different geometries.

CG.zip

when I imported that Inroads geometry to OpenRoads CG i got good values for spiral's start and end R value - both in element info and in xml report. It is different geometry than one created with Arc-spiral-Arc from CG pallete. inroads free curve with spirals was replaced in Civil geometry with spiral arc from element.

I did more tests: Inroads Geometry tool: free-arc-between elements give different solution than Civil Geometry Spiral-Arc-spiral between elements tool. With CG I get Radii mis-matched info when checking integrity and with Inroads tools everything is just fine.

Please find dgn and alg attached. Initial elements are line and arc R=1970. I added free arc with spirals with Inroads tool (A=1600, R=7000, A=660) then I did the same with Civil Geometry tool (Spiral-Arc-Spiral). as e result I got two different geometries.

CG.zip

when I imported that Inroads geometry to OpenRoads CG i got good values for spiral's start and end R value - both in element info and in xml report. It is different geometry than one created with Arc-spiral-Arc from CG pallete. inroads free curve with spirals was replaced in Civil geometry with spiral arc from element.