OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 15:25:04 GMT

Are you annotating several sheets views in the drawing model? If so, are you able to label data in the drawing model with the view rotated along each sheet?

It seems when you use the Named Boundaries dialog the software automatically creates a drawing model with the sheet model. So is there another drawing model to be referenced into the sheets as well?

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

jpln — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:26:45 GMT

Yes I am using the named boundary dialog from the design model. I am annotating the drawing model (My drawing model)

Exemple: Default is the Design Model, I create MyDrawing (Drawing model). In MyDrawing I reference Default and produce the annotation. In Default I reference MyDrawing (no nesting). In Default I am using Named boundaries to create sheets.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 14:48:22 GMT

Yeah, InRoads notes was the same way. The notes would match the view rotation. What is Bentley doing?

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Garry Spivey — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 14:04:51 GMT

It doesn’t matter what view, model, drawing, design. One cannot place the text with this tool and make the angle of the text different than 0 or 360. In GeoPak labeler you can place labels text and different angles than o or 360.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:55:09 GMT

jpln,

I was trying to reproduce the workflow you describe in your post. Do you use the named boundary dialog to produce sheets? Do you create sheets references from the design model or the drawing model? Are you annotating data in the drawing model or design model?

As you can tell this rotated drawing model issue is really bugging me :-)

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 14:13:16 GMT

Bentley's workflow for creating sheets from drawing models has been around awhile, I set it up in SS2 and SS4. The only thing new is the use of named boundaries instead of saved views. Creating a drawing model from a named boundary or saved view makes sense. You can isolate the view, clip the references and annotate the individual drawings that can be combined to make a sheet. This is how the Uniform Drawing System (UDS) is set up in National CAD Standards documentation. This is great to see. The problem I am finding with the drawing model workflow is the fact that the software creates a drawing model from a named boundary then rotates the reference files instead of the view for annotation. That may be ok for architectural drawings were coordinates don't really matter, but for civil drawings coordinates are everything. A mislabeled coordinate on a project can cost an engineer or DOT thousands of dollars.

I don't see Bentley changing this soon. I would guess the workflow for creating sheets from named boundaries (saved views) is difficult to change and effects many different products. I believe Bentley is trying to standardize how sheet creation is accomplished in Microstation and this is a good thing. Out of all the DOT's in the US that use Microstation, I would bet almost every one has a different method for creating sheets. As users we just want something standard and simple to understand like Autocad's paperspace and modelspace.

I think our best bet would be to push for "Labels" to have the ability to rotate with the active view as dimensions and text do. This at least would allow users to annotate coordinates, bearings etc... in a design model at the true location.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 13:51:50 GMT

Jpin, Thanks for the input. The problem we are finding is that you can't annotate an unrotated drawing model with labels. The labels don't rotate to match the view rotation. Not sure I understand the workaround you mentioned in your post. May need to explain in more detail.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

jpln — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:02:39 GMT

I don't know if there is any reason to prevent using unrotated drawing model. Let development team answer.

Meanwhile a workaround to keep your workflow, I fully understand and agree with, is to create your own drawing model in which you can reference your design unrotated. Then you reference back this model in the design with no nesting. Now you can produce sheets with no action in the individual drawing models.

So one more model and reference management but you have to do it only once or have it already prepared in a seed.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Adam Wieczorek — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 15:31:39 GMT

[quote userid="716422" url="~/products/road___site_design/f/geopak-inroads-mx-openroads-forum/144708/openroads-designer-where-to-annotate-coordinates-stations-and-bearing-drawing-model-design-model-sheet-model/445534"]he cardinal sin in Civil design/drafting is moving and rotating georeferenced (plan view) reference files. This applies to AutoCAD and Microstation. I understand the drawing model workflow and I am all for it. We just need a drawing model with a rotated view at scale 1:1 and 0 rotation.[/quote]

I fully agree - drawing model mus by 1:1 with design model and cut into sheets later on. Moreover I don't like this clipped drawings, when annotating I would like to have a full picture, along with further sheet border. But it is cruicial to annotate model that is 1:1 with design, no rotation or scale factor applied, so we can verify coordinates with all microstation commands (even with snap and running coordinates), not just text favorites or labels. we have non-civil elements to be annotated, other disciplines referenced, etc. I don't believe current approach can be used in real world project successfully.

would be great to know what is the Bentley development plan for this drawing production.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 21:59:23 GMT

What I have found by testing ORD the last few weeks is that you can only annotate with "labels" in the drawing model. (Unless you want your text rotated true north 100% of the time) . The labels don't seem to rotate with the active view. If the drawing model is created from a named boundary the software rotates the reference files instead of the view , which is a totally new workflow and different from what we are use to. This workflow raises a question I have been trying to address in this post. How do you verify coordinates and bearings from rotated and moved reference files. I assume you just have to trust that the label tool is working correctly and pulling the correct data.

The cardinal sin in Civil design/drafting is moving and rotating georeferenced (plan view) reference files. This applies to AutoCAD and Microstation. I understand the drawing model workflow and I am all for it. We just need a drawing model with a rotated view at scale 1:1 and 0 rotation.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Garry Spivey — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 21:33:46 GMT

when were labeling with plan labeler in ORD I can not place the text at different angles. the text is always horizontal 0 or 360. is there a way to place the text at different angles like the GeoPak Labeler?

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 15:27:30 GMT

Mary,

I agree. Creating and modifying sheets should be a simple process. This is what AutoCAD has going for it. This new sheet creation process with OpenRoads Designer (and Connect Edition) is complicated and confusing. As a user I still have many questions. Which model do I annotate or identify coordinate data in? If I move the named boundary will the drawing model references move and rotate? Why can't live nested references in the same file update without a forced reload? In my opinion, Bentley needs to use their software on a real world project and hash some of this out. I actually love where they are going with the civil design software, but they haven't quite figured out the plan production aspect yet.

Solution: All we need for a plan view is a named boundary that when moved, scaled or rotated, updates the sheet view. And a drawing model that is 1:1 with references that don't move or rotate. Also, live nested references that update automatically when contained in the same file.

That is my two cents worth.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

MaryB — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 13:33:58 GMT

And the issue goes beyond annotation. We have engineers here who like to get into drawings and get the information for themselves. While these are very smart, capable individuals, they are not trained in CAD and some of them aren't even trained in the civil software. We can tell them all we want to NOT use certain files, but invariably they will, then come to us demanding to know why the information in said drawing isn't "right".

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 07:55:20 GMT

Holly,

Thanks for filing the defect. In response to your annotation suggestion. Respectfully, I have to add that you really can’t annotate lines, line stings and shapes using element fields. The software doesn’t let the user identify which vertice or segment to target.

Also, annotating the coordinates and bearings in the design model is a workflow I would like to avoid. But it may be the only viable option. Half the annotation would end up in a drawing model and half in a design model. What do you do when you have separate sheet files?

For now I may just avoid using drawing models all together for plan views. It just seems risky to advise users to annotate coordinates and bearings in a drawing model that may not have references in the correct location.

Hopefully this can get fixed.

Thanks for your time.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Adam Wieczorek — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:10:57 GMT

Thank you Holly,

I really like new tools for annotations.If only we could manage text favs somehow - I know development is working on such capability. And you are 100% right that it is good to have annotation updated with design changes.Also annotations groups speed up drafting works... providing you have them well developed. You have no idea how warm welcome XS annotations tools are in my team - with points filtering - we were missing that in S3/4.

Drawing models are often annotated by cad drafters who are not really familiar with Civil Tools - that would be another reason to have drawing models 1:1 with design model. And we still can use labels with text favs and cels, or annotation gorups, when drawing model is kept in design model scale and orientation.

again thanks for loging defect,..and for understanding!

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Holly Herring — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:28:33 GMT

I filed Defect 803213: Drawing Model coordinates do not match Design Model coordinates. As of now, with OpenRoads Designer (ORD) v10.02.00.60 or earlier, the Drawing Model rotates the Design Model planar to the x,y axis if creating a plan sheet. This only really affects the tools Label Coordinates and Label Element. They label the coordinate values associated with the existing model. If there are other tools this affects that I have not listed, please let me know. It does not affect annotation tools such as any of the Text tools. These tools can annotate using the Insert Field command that annotate according to an element’s property, whether the element is a civil element or not. They will display the coordinate values from the Design Model.

I recommend annotating using Civil tools, and not tools that hold no intelligence like the Label Coordinates or Label Element. The recommended workflow is to use Annotation Groups to group together multiple Annotation Definitions to annotate elements. For example, you could have an Annotation Group that has an Annotation Definition to add tick marks, a definition to annotate PIs that was generated from a Text Favorite, and a definition to annotate stationing every 100 units. The Feature Definitions can be set up to point to a specific Annotation Group that will annotate all of that at once.

If you have a random annotation that you need within a Drawing Model, use the Place Text tool to do this. You can utilize the Insert Field button to choose that you want X,Y,Z coordinates to annotate on a specific element. This can be used to replace the Label Coordinates or Label Element field. You don’t necessarily have to set up a Text Favorite unless you will use it often, and want to save it. If you are specifically wanting to use Label Coordinates or Label Element, you will want to use them in the Design Model, not the Drawing Model to get the correct coordinates

We have learning paths that teach how to set up Annotation Groups: http://learn.bentley.com/app/Public/ViewLearningPathDetails?lpId=111346. It will be the OpenRoads Designer Workspace Setup: Step 5 – Annotation and the OpenRoads Designer Workspace Setup: Step 6 - Survey Annotation. I highly recommend walking through these videos to understand how Annotation Groups and Text Favorites operate.

If there is a specific type of annotation that you cannot figure out how to reproduce with the civil tools, please let me know. Tell me which tool you are currently using to annotate, and how it isn’t functioning how you would like for it to. I will help you to get the annotation that you are looking for.

Holly

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:10:43 GMT

Adam,

Thanks for the reply. The more I use OpenRoads Designer the more I am concerned about this issue. I have worked on many large scale projects, including Mines, Landfills, and Energy facilities that were designed using InRoads and Microstation/Autocad. These projects rely primarily on xyz data. Alignments, corridors, terrains etc... may not even be associated to many of the civil drawings. So being able to annotate the native xyz and bearing data is critical to drawing production. Also, on these projects non civil drafters/designers are using the civil drawings. In my opinion anyone should be able to get into a civil drawing and snap to an element and pull the correct xy or xyz data. Creating a drawing model that moves and rotates the reference files is confusing and could even be a liability for engineers.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Adam Wieczorek — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:27:03 GMT

Every designer, cad operator, drafter would expect Drawing Model to be design model 1:1 with the original coordinate system. This is natural workflow. And I believe it was advised by Bentley since Drawing models were introduced.

We annotate not only civil geometry, and not only civil objects are put on drawings. Usually, we have topo survey there, other discipline drawings coming from different cad platforms.What if I want to annotate XYZ of a corner of existing retaining wall drawn with AutoCad? What tool would I use to annotate XYZ od such non-civil element in a drawing model?

I've just started with drawing production tools in ORD, and if this is true that drawing model are not in correct coordinates and we can only use text fav to annotate correctly, ... I would be really concerned. Will investigate this deeper and post an update here soon.

I fully agree with Zane, Civil Projects rely on XYZ, and believe me OpneRoads models with its geometry and capabilities are only a portion of designs we develop, just a single discipline. We have other stuff in our drawings, not only the OpenRoads Elements, we have full context: existing topo, other proposed infrastructure elements, etc.

We always attach design models to drawings models with no rotation, scale change or movement - coincident method (in most cases drawings are stored in other files than dgn with design model), we annotate elements depending on scale and purpose of the drawing. Then we create sheets. We keep original coordinates as long as possible.

Text favorites are not the cure for everything:

-technology seems to be not fully matured (how to manage, group, update or share text fav??? I just started with annotation tools and my list of text fav is pretty long, and the list window is very small..)

-can not use the same text fav for OpenRoads and Not Openroads elements, eg, XYZ in Plan, or STA EL in profile (sometimes we dont even annotate exact element, just need XYZ or STA annotated just in not-populated area, like approx. valuie)

-when annotation need to be changed, eg station format, accuracy - I noticed we can use []active setting for some OpenRoad related text favs, but for some reason it does not work for me

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:27:32 GMT

After watching videos etc.. I expected the drawing models to be 1:1 and not moved or rotated. This would allow for normal annotation and sheet production techniques to be used. I would definitely recommend Bentley look at changing the drawing model workflow. Once people start using the software and realize the drawing models have incorrect coordinate values associated to them, they will be concerned.

FYI,

Civil projects rely heavily on coordinate data x,y,z. Many Microstation users may not know how to create text favorites or annotation groups etc... also, they may not have the admin rights to do so. Users rely on the coordinate data in drawings to annotate the sheets. With the references in the drawing model rotated or moved I am concerned this will create problems, giving users incorrect coordinate or bearing values.

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Holly Herring — Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:01:59 GMT

Hi Zane,

The annotation comes from properties from the design model. The Drawing model has the design model referenced to it. So when annotation occurs, it takes the information from the design model. You can verify that they are correct by annotating in the drawing model, then checking to make sure the coordinates match when you snap to the point within the design model.

Holly

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Zane Pratt — Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:59:58 GMT

My concern is that the references in the drawing model are moved and rotated, so the coordinates are incorrect. This is very scary. I can only annotate coordinates and bearings with text favorites? How do a verify the coordinates and bearings from the text favorites are correct?

RE: OpenRoads Designer , Where to annotate coordinates, stations and bearing? Drawing model? Design Model? Sheet Model?

Holly Herring — Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:41:35 GMT

Hi Zane,

All annotation should be done within the Drawing Model. Are you wanting to annotate civil elements with their coordinates? You will have to create a Text Favorite for this, then add it to an annotation group. Here's an example video of how to do this: https://communities.bentley.com/products/road___site_design/w/road_and_site_design__wiki/34981/video-editing-the-station-format-of-a-horizontal-alignment-s-annotation

Holly