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SS3 Horizontal and Vertical Profile Relationships

mbachand

I posted a similar topic on this forum several weeks ago but no one seemed to have an answer so here I go again.  Assume the following work flow:

  1. Create a horizontal alignment using the SS3 horizontal element tools.
  2. Make a complex element from these horizontal elements and name the alignment, say Horz1 for example
  3. Define a vertical alignment for this complex horizontal element Horz1

In an every day working environment the first horizontal alignment  created is never the final one that is constructed.  There are always multiple revisions to an alignment due to unforeseen issues.  Given that, a user will come to a situation where the complex horizontal alignment Horz1 will need to be modified in some way.  Two possible scenarios are as follows:

  1. The complex element Horz1 can be modified in a way that preserves the original alignment definition.  This would be done by using the civil manipulators that appear when selecting the alignment.
  2. A portion of Horz1 must be deleted and new elements inserted in place, i.e. the revision is not possible given the current rules of the horizontal elements in Hozr1

If we look more closly at #2 and what happens when this type of revision is required you see that when new elements are inserted into the complex element and a new complex element is created it takes on a new name, say Horz2.  On the surface this is not an issue BUT the vertical alignment of Horz1 is not preserved when Horz2 is created.  The new complex element has no defined vertical alignment associated with it.

As you can see there are many implications that result from this, inculding corridor definitions, superelevations, and template drops to name a few.

How can I get around this?  If it is not possible to preserve a vertical alignment from one complex element to another then the current version of the software is nothing more than a neat toy to play with on the computer.  There would not be any real world project that I could use this version on since, as stated above, there is no project where the first horizontal alignment is the one that is constructed.

Marc

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  • 0 Offline

    Marc:

    First, when you partial delete or trim a vertical, the original is not lost.  Perhaps you mean that the name is lost?  Even this should not happen, I don;t think.  If it is then please explore this as a bug report.

    Second, I would suggest that a preferred workflow is to always use Active Profile in corridor defintions and etc.  Then you workflow becomes:

    1. Create original vertical alignment and set active
    2. Later, something happens and need to change.  Trim, partial delete, insert new elements.
    3. Make the new complex which is a combination of old and new.  Make it active.

    Robert Garrett
    Senior Product Engineer
    Bentley Systems Inc.



  • 0 in reply to Robert Garrett

    Robert,

    I am not referring to an edit to a vertical alignment in this workflow.  I am referring to an edit requiring a trim/partial delete to a complex horizontal element with a vertical alignment.  If I make an edit to a complex horizontal element and need to create a new complex element from these revised parts the new complex horizontal element does not contain the vertial alignment from the original element.

    Marc

  • 0 Offline in reply to mbachand

    Oh. Sorry.  I misunderstood.  One of the following should work, but I have not tested.

    1. Partial delete the H alignment and make the new alignment as you've already done.  When you open the profile for the new alignment, I wuld have expected that the profile for the individual pieces showed up in the new profile space.  But, since you are asking the question, apparently not.
    2. Thus, I have more confidence in this. 
    1. After the new profile space is open, use the project profile command to project the original alignment into the new alignment profile.  In the project command, be sure to pick the original H alignment as the source.
    2. Then in the new profile space, you'll need to partial delete across the same station range as you partial deleted in the horizontal. Remeber, that for this, you can snap in plan space or use civil accudraw to get the exact same partial delete range.
    3. Design profile for the deleted gap.
    4. Make a new V alignment of the pieces of projection and new profile in the gap.

    Robert Garrett
    Senior Product Engineer
    Bentley Systems Inc.



Reply
  • 0 Offline in reply to mbachand

    Oh. Sorry.  I misunderstood.  One of the following should work, but I have not tested.

    1. Partial delete the H alignment and make the new alignment as you've already done.  When you open the profile for the new alignment, I wuld have expected that the profile for the individual pieces showed up in the new profile space.  But, since you are asking the question, apparently not.
    2. Thus, I have more confidence in this. 
    1. After the new profile space is open, use the project profile command to project the original alignment into the new alignment profile.  In the project command, be sure to pick the original H alignment as the source.
    2. Then in the new profile space, you'll need to partial delete across the same station range as you partial deleted in the horizontal. Remeber, that for this, you can snap in plan space or use civil accudraw to get the exact same partial delete range.
    3. Design profile for the deleted gap.
    4. Make a new V alignment of the pieces of projection and new profile in the gap.

    Robert Garrett
    Senior Product Engineer
    Bentley Systems Inc.



Children
  • 0 in reply to Robert Garrett

    The new horizontal element does not contain the original elements profile since a new complex element is created in this process.

    If I follow the above workflow, which I have not had a chance to test as of yet, will the projected profile be an actual vertical alignment with tangents and parabolic curves or will it be a series of PIs? My guess is, based on past history with the project profile command, it will be a series of PIs. While this may be ok for modeling purposes it does present an issue with reporting and production work as any plan sheet of profiles must show an actual profile alignment. My preference in modeling would also be for the model to be based on a true profile since this is what would be used for construction purposes.

    I believe you had recommended this workflow to me when I posted this question before. I still think this is a serious flaw in the current version of the software and wold think it should get more attention from the Bentley staff. If a vertical profile can not be maintained or copied then how can this version be used for any active projects?

    Marc

  • 0 Offline in reply to Robert Garrett

    Robert, second one works but it may be confusing that few profile models are needed to edit VA. Especially when you deal with more than 1 HA edit.

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